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December 4th, 2006

Apple vs. Dell price war

Posted by Ed Burnette @ 12:01 am

Categories: General

Tags:

In Focus » See more posts on: Dell

Looking for a new computer for multimedia, games, or software development? If you're like me you've probably always heard Apple Macs carried a price premium over machines from companies such as Dell. I decided to put that belief to the test by comparing the prices on two similarly configured notebook computers.

[Update: For a lower-end comparison see this follow-up article.]

In particular I compared the Dell XPS M1710 with the Apple M17-inch MacBook Pro. Both notebooks were configured with the following components:

  • Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T7600 (2.33GHz, 4MB L2 Cache, 667 MHz FSB) processor
  • 17-inch wide screen display
  • 256MB dedicated 3D graphics card
  • 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHZ (2 DIMM)
  • 100GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive
  • CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW)
  • Integrated Audio
  • Standard battery
  • Internal Bluetooth (2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate)
  • Internal 802.11g wireless
  • DVD and movie editing software
  • 1Yr Ltd Warranty
  • Customer support (at least 30 days)

Total price (before taxes and shipping) as of 03Dec2006 10:30pm EST:

  • Dell: $3,222
  • Apple: $2,699 
  • Difference: $523

Of course, the computers could not be configured *exactly* the same way but I tried to get them as close as possible. Here are some of the differences that favored the Mac:

  • Includes a built-in camera for video conferencing. 
  • Thinner and lighter than the Dell (6.8 lbs., 1.0 in. vs. 8.7 lbs., 1.6").
  • Longer customer support (90 days vs. 30 days)
  • Back-lit keyboard.

And here are some that favored the Dell machine:

  • Higher screen resolution (1920×1200 vs. 1680×1050).
  • It has more USB 2.0 ports (6 vs. 4) but fewer FireWire ports (1 vs. 2).
  • Dell's Wi-fi card also supports 802.11a.
  • Dell's warranty covers in-home service, while Apple's is mail-in only.

Both companies carry many other models, and the customization possibilities are endless. But for these particular configurations, Apple comes out the clear price leader. Surprised?

Ed BurnetteEd Burnette is a professional developer and author of several articles and books about computing including Hello, Android: Introducing Google's Mobile Development Platform, 2nd Edition. For disclosure of Ed's industry affiliations, click here or to view his full profile click here.

Email Ed Burnette

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  • Most Recent of 373 Talkback(s)
not funny- tedious
Same old material from same old hack- maybe generates a giggle the first time, but the guy just bangs away like some sienfeld try hard with his only joke about a computer. yawn.... (Read the rest)
Posted by: hirez Posted on: 01/08/07 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
Not a great comprarison  toadlife | 12/04/06
Can you be more specific?  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
Problem?  MacCanuck | 12/04/06
Of course  wcb42ad | 12/05/06
I'd be interested in the details  MTMacPhee | 12/08/06
Apologies  toadlife | 12/04/06
You are 100% right  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Screen and service  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
Have you looked at Nonzealots configuration below?  toadlife | 12/04/06
screen res  waltmaine | 12/04/06
Gee - that makes sense  macbill | 12/05/06
Yes...  A_Pickle | 12/05/06
Only an Apple zealot would ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
But is it more useable?  BitTwiddler | 12/05/06
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!  NonZealot | 12/05/06
depends on use  shraven | 12/05/06
you realize there are settings you can adjust for that?  CobraA1 | 12/05/06
Not that simple  ebernet | 12/08/06
Clearly something missing  xuniL_z | 12/04/06
4GB will cost $2775 more  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
You prove the bias  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Kidding, right?  dlmeyer@... | 12/05/06
You are joking?  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
I agree...  ebernet | 12/08/06
You might want to rephrase that...  wcb42ad | 12/05/06
Cost of Dell memory  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/06/06
No way. You can't do that since the Apple can't go to 4MB  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
Once again you use the red herring ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
I think your missing something...  techJerk | 12/04/06
They are both disappointing  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
And windows will only see 3GB of that 4GB  BitTwiddler | 12/05/06
re: And windows will only see 3GB of that 4GB  shidokan@... | 12/05/06
Have you heard of Vista?  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
It's the chipset  neo@... | 12/06/06
Just ask George Ou  nucrash | 12/05/06
Why on earth...  macbill | 12/05/06
High end...  Information_z | 12/05/06
Entry level pricing  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/06/06
This article stinks  Protector | 12/04/06
Re: This article stinks  woneal@... | 12/04/06
No, those are your facts  BitTwiddler | 12/05/06
re: This article stinks  shidokan@... | 12/05/06
Thank you....  cashaww | 12/05/06
BMW vs Ford... but with 1 big difference  NonZealot | 12/05/06
Not exactly the same  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/06/06
You are right  NonZealot | 12/06/06
Same chipset and Cpu.  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
And that proves one thing.  Cayble | 12/10/06
Clearly Apple is not only better, it's cheaper!  Prognosticator | 12/04/06
Not Necessarily  D. T. Schmitz | 12/04/06
Lenovo  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
Lenovo ThinkPad T60p / $2478  D. T. Schmitz | 12/04/06
Here's the link to the page / Forgot to include  D. T. Schmitz | 12/04/06
Re: link to page (expired)  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
One more time  D. T. Schmitz | 12/04/06
but...  ebernet | 12/08/06
How objective  xuniL_z | 12/04/06
Later revisions were much improved  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
It is not that the Core 2 Duo MacBook Pros ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
I use a MacBook Core Duo  MTMacPhee | 12/08/06
A couple problems with what you say.  ShadeTree | 12/12/06
Crummy quality  macbill | 12/05/06
Answer this then...  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
re: How objective  shidokan@... | 12/05/06
I doubt...  cashaww | 12/05/06
Hilarious justification!!!  NonZealot | 12/05/06
Really?  neo@... | 12/06/06
Neither does Apple!  ShadeTree | 12/07/06
How about comparing laptops people usually buy.  3D0G | 12/04/06
Cleaver...  Laff | 12/04/06
Apple  3D0G | 12/04/06
Er...  Swift48 | 12/05/06
Where did I say that?  3D0G | 12/05/06
Why buy a Mac to run MS Windows?  nrkmann@... | 12/05/06
If you are going to claim that there is a ...  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
Won't need a pirated version  MacCanuck | 12/07/06
Vaporware.  ShadeTree | 12/07/06
That didn't stop Vista from being yakked up  MacCanuck | 12/11/06
No excuses, Vista is here.  ShadeTree | 12/11/06
Pathetic Shadetree...  MacCanuck | 12/11/06
PS- RE: Bland  3D0G | 12/04/06
Funny how you include the software for Dell  MacCanuck | 12/04/06
Those prices were directly off the Apple Store.  3D0G | 12/04/06
Well Here is what I got off the Websites ?  el1jones | 12/04/06
Curious.  3D0G | 12/04/06
Dell's website is a horrible mess  tic swayback | 12/04/06
No argument there!  3D0G | 12/04/06
Okay... I did get a lower price.... would still recommend the Macs.  el1jones | 12/04/06
Lacking honesty  Reverend MacFellow | 12/04/06
What dishonesty? Care to elaborate? (NT)  3D0G | 12/04/06
True, It's hard to compete pricewise with a bargain bin PC like dell, but..  Tigertank | 12/04/06
Truth be told...  3D0G | 12/04/06
You got one thing right  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Where do you get $30 from  Tigertank | 12/04/06
Ahhh the old...  wcb42ad | 12/05/06
Bull!  cashaww | 12/05/06
Comparing low end machines  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
Erm...  A_Pickle | 12/05/06
The memory speed makes no difference at ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Wrong model  macbill | 12/05/06
re: how about comparing...  shidokan@... | 12/05/06
which is the better buy?  mackwatson@... | 12/05/06
Wow, there's some logic!  A_Pickle | 12/05/06
You forgot to...  cashaww | 12/05/06
Good reason  NonZealot | 12/05/06
Hmmmm..  cashaww | 12/05/06
Forgot nothing  3D0G | 12/05/06
No...  cashaww | 12/05/06
The Mac  ewelch | 12/06/06
Where do I post about this new freaky TalkBack Format?  el1jones | 12/04/06
I thought it was just me.  Tigertank | 12/04/06
Your article is completely flawed.  km7 | 12/04/06
Desktop?  fizzmaster | 12/04/06
True  wcb42ad | 12/05/06
Would that be the B110 in the CLOSEOUT section?  el1jones | 12/04/06
Oh, Gee  Cardhu | 12/05/06
Although it is clear Apple is ...  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
Why compete on the low end?  Zoraster | 12/04/06
Why indeed!  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
The Mac mini was part of the "switch " campaign  Tigertank | 12/04/06
I would not say...  cashaww | 12/05/06
What ever.  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Some people...  wcb42ad | 12/05/06
And some people only buy Yugos  Cardhu | 12/05/06
Except the Apple is made out of the ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Hmm......Not quite  1984wasntlike1984 | 12/06/06
Very easily.  ShadeTree | 12/07/06
Our Professions?  wcb42ad | 12/06/06
competing on low end  gregzdnet | 12/05/06
Another low end comparison  runningfire | 12/05/06
one more thing  runningfire | 12/05/06
one more one more  gregzdnet | 12/05/06
You won't find it  j.m.galvin | 12/04/06
Nice try but no cigar  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
Low end is a sucker's game  tic swayback | 12/04/06
If Apple was not interested in playing ...  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
Loss leader  tic swayback | 12/04/06
The price may not be low end ...  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
And your point is....?  tic swayback | 12/04/06
mac mini  waltmaine | 12/04/06
Exactly, why bother  THEE WOLF | 12/04/06
Dell still wins on the high end... (nt)  A_Pickle | 12/05/06
Three things I find humorous about these reviews  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Why is it humorous?  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Both started at base configurations  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
You're still only comparing...  wcb42ad | 12/05/06
Lower end  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/06/06
Sorry  cashaww | 12/05/06
The Thing I Find Amusing About Nonzealot  Cardhu | 12/05/06
What does it profit a man or in this case a business  Laff | 12/04/06
Who wants razor thin profit margins?  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Don't agree....  Laff | 12/04/06
Still another phoney arguement.  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
And you last $399.00 system purchase was when?  Laff | 12/04/06
Vista  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
Vista with Aero runs fine on a machine ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Oh, You Wish!  Cardhu | 12/05/06
I'll make you bet ....  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Correction  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Your bet is easy to make  MacCanuck | 12/06/06
MacCanuck: If it's so impossible...  NonZealot | 12/06/06
Wrong again Zealot  MacCanuck | 12/07/06
ShadeTree's Bet  Cardhu | 12/07/06
RE: MacCanuk  ShadeTree | 12/08/06
Still dodging the point  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Don't think Apple is concerned with such bland items  Laff | 12/04/06
Bland items?  NonZealot | 12/04/06
As a rule I find hard drives and memory fairl bland subjects.  Laff | 12/04/06
RE: Laff  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Shade... how does that differ  MacCanuck | 12/06/06
The difference is easy.  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
Shade... you see fit to stick your nose in  MacCanuck | 12/07/06
RE: MacCanuck  ShadeTree | 12/08/06
Again, Blithe Misstatement of Fact  Cardhu | 12/05/06
I agree  xuniL_z | 12/04/06
Um FYI Bill Gates had nothing to do with cheap PC's  Laff | 12/04/06
ummmm, nope.  xuniL_z | 12/04/06
Who are those people?  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Spoken like a true...  Rick_K | 12/05/06
What Microsoft did to make Windows run ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
An Equally Bithe Misstatement  Cardhu | 12/05/06
Apple didn't make it posiible to run Windows ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Okay, so you clearly think that Mcirosoft, AMD, and Intel are one  Cardhu | 12/07/06
I would not say...  cashaww | 12/05/06
Another phony arguement ...  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
Um did I make a big point about quality in my last post?  Laff | 12/04/06
Inferior?  tic swayback | 12/04/06
I meant inferior  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
Can you post your extensive data?  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Your statistics could be garbage  NonZealot | 12/04/06
You think that 95% stat means much either?  Laff | 12/04/06
Perhaps a statistics course might help you  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Zealot... perhaps your "stats" are garbage happy  MacCanuck | 12/04/06
too bad somebody couldn't study resumes  xuniL_z | 12/04/06
It's okay tic, I'm used to your double standards. (nt)  NonZealot | 12/04/06
xuniL_Z--  tic swayback | 12/04/06
It's okay NZ--  tic swayback | 12/04/06
MacCanuck: the person who pays gets to choose  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Please don't mischaracterize my statements NZ  tic swayback | 12/04/06
tic: this is priceless!!  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Wow, read much?  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Earth to Zealot  MacCanuck | 12/04/06
tic... re mischaracterizing statements  MacCanuck | 12/05/06
The reason Apple ranks high is because ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Reply To Zealot  Cardhu | 12/05/06
Reply to cardhu  NonZealot | 12/05/06
Re Shade  Laff | 12/06/06
As I said previously it has not been long ...  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
Reply to Zealot  Cardhu | 12/07/06
Wow, read much?  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Oops wrong spot  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Poor tic, your shovel isn't big enough!  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Oh dear, sorry for the confusion  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Another fallacious defense...  1984wasntlike1984 | 12/06/06
I can show you any number ...  ShadeTree | 12/07/06
Dell Has Very Poor Reliability  Cardhu | 12/07/06
Sorry about that but...  1984wasntlike1984 | 12/08/06
And sustainability?  techJerk | 12/04/06
That's cheap!  macbill | 12/05/06
Prices, schmices!  machelpdesk | 12/04/06
Mercedes  3D0G | 12/04/06
Wrong on every point.  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
you forgot to add...  wacho | 12/04/06
You forgot  xuniL_z | 12/04/06
The other hilarious thing  NonZealot | 12/04/06
You are right  xuniL_z | 12/04/06
That goes both ways  Tigertank | 12/04/06
This is Apple's lower end machine?  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
Once again for the windows zealots.  Rick_K | 12/05/06
You didn't print the part that says it's an update, so back down zealot.  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
That is exactly our experience  Cardhu | 12/07/06
You have a brain fart?  Rick_K | 12/05/06
So hampering the competition is bad?  NonZealot | 12/05/06
Can I get some of what you're smoking?  Rick_K | 12/05/06
Actually it's not flawed  Martin Pilkington | 12/04/06
It is flawed and you prove it  NonZealot | 12/04/06
STOP THE CAR MADNESS!!!  Laff | 12/04/06
WiFi & Software  Martin Pilkington | 12/04/06
The WiFi in the MacBook is ...  ShadeTree | 12/04/06
Hmm, my Dell came to $1,962  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Even no action is a type of action.  Laff | 12/04/06
and how much do others charge- not thinking  hirez | 12/04/06
E1705 is $2,299  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/04/06
Invalid example  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
I would care  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/11/06
Man...what a bunch of Jealous windows zealots!  nomorems | 12/04/06
It is kind of funny....  tic swayback | 12/04/06
What is even more funny is ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
HUH. So we are Dell zealots? Good one  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
Talk about wrong focus  yanus7 | 12/04/06
Mindshare and Marketshare  tic swayback | 12/04/06
Oh, the answer is so simple!!  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Simple minds have simple thoughts  tic swayback | 12/04/06
You should know by now  Rick_K | 12/05/06
Do you know what that sounds like?  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
Here Here!  cef1000@... | 12/05/06
The cost is later  TonyMcS | 12/04/06
Apple's ad is HILARIOUS!!  NonZealot | 12/04/06
Huh?  tic swayback | 12/04/06
no idea how OSX works  wacho | 12/05/06
You need help  Rick_K | 12/05/06
Right on. And check the link to the TV ads.  xuniL_z | 12/05/06
Actually - the reference is to the typical users...  ladyirol | 12/05/06
You didn't get the memo?  xuniL_z | 12/06/06
And just when was that survey taken?  ladyirol | 12/07/06
The article was on zdnet recently  NonZealot | 12/07/06
The Article On Apple User Population  Cardhu | 12/07/06
Arrogance and Ignorance, a deadly combination  tic swayback | 12/04/06
And it describes the Cult of the Mac ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
...What flaw?  ladyirol | 12/05/06
Your kidding right?  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
Unproven exploits? Flaws?  ladyirol | 12/07/06
The Wireless Exploit I quoted was demonstrated ...  ShadeTree | 12/07/06
That and a few thousand more  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/11/06
The Cults  Cardhu | 12/08/06
USB add-ons are simple  Mr_Dave | 12/04/06
Careful or you'll overtake Zealot  MacCanuck | 12/04/06
Apple's free Disk Utility...  wacho | 12/05/06
Trouble free Windows claims  MacCanuck | 12/05/06
Perhaps if her father was profficient ...  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
Can't read? Obviously... why am I not surprised  MacCanuck | 12/06/06
It would seem to me your lack of ...  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
Nice try...  MacCanuck | 12/06/06
Don't confuse the IT staff of a school ...  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
MacCanuck: I can't let a fellow Canadian continue  NonZealot | 12/06/06
At least I got it to work  MacCanuck | 12/07/06
See, you can be reasonable...  MacCanuck | 12/07/06
Simple answer - None  Dr. John | 12/06/06
OSX R/W to FAT32  Stuka | 12/05/06
Really?  Rick_K | 12/05/06
Vid card makes the diff  kbk_75 | 12/04/06
The differneces are obvious.  DCMann | 12/06/06
The comparison is between a Dell and a Mac ...  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
It's called Disk Utility  Swift48 | 12/05/06
Message has been deleted.  wacho | 12/05/06
So for under $300  3D0G | 12/05/06
Your words define your ignorance...  ladyirol | 12/07/06
You left out the $ 199.00 ...  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Not that much  Dr. John | 12/06/06
The price of a Mac...  Dr. John | 12/06/06
dell pricing  riner1@... | 12/05/06
Mac vs Dell  jarrisueno@... | 12/05/06
You sir are a moron.  dmuchler | 12/05/06
Hmm.  A_Pickle | 12/05/06
E1705  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/06/06
Lol:) ... but...  ladyirol | 12/07/06
Market Strata  walter@... | 12/05/06
Not surprised  dfo@... | 12/05/06
Hrm... Sanity check sad  rickeldarwish@... | 12/05/06
What price  Rabford | 12/05/06
Aw, c'mon!  joe6pack_z | 12/05/06
I own both and guess what...  SkiRacer | 12/05/06
What are you running on that PCL?  Dr. John | 12/06/06
LET'S FACE IT...  QueenMama | 12/05/06
peecee? basement?  inconsequential | 12/05/06
You define yourself...  ladyirol | 12/07/06
Troll  Dr. John | 12/06/06
Apple vs. Dell price war  Mr_Wizard | 12/05/06
Visions of Real World Comparisions!!!  cef1000@... | 12/05/06
Just admit that never the 'twain shall meet  aellath | 12/05/06
And, TADA!, Linux!  linuxiac | 12/05/06
Right on!  SOMSS_z | 12/08/06
Are Windows or Mac users the cult.  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
Windows or Mac users? BSD or GNU/Linux?  linuxiac | 12/05/06
I would definitely not call you a cultist.  ShadeTree | 12/05/06
What argument?  SOMSS_z | 12/08/06
Look up Cult in the dictionary and you'll ...  ShadeTree | 12/13/06
lower cost laptop comparison  bashkin001@... | 12/05/06
Thanks for being clear and honest!  ladyirol | 12/05/06
Because he agrees with you he is ...  ShadeTree | 12/06/06
Thanks for being clear and honest!  NonZealot | 12/06/06
Awww...c'mon!  ladyirol | 12/07/06
...and...  ladyirol | 12/07/06
Your personal experience aside ...  ShadeTree | 12/07/06
I hope not...  ladyirol | 12/07/06
The problem is not with Intel's hardware.  ShadeTree | 12/07/06
I did say exacting standards.  ladyirol | 12/07/06
Dell vs Mac  slstwin@... | 12/05/06
Suggestions for you  NonZealot | 12/05/06
Cheesey and Childish Response...  ladyirol | 12/05/06
What flavour Koolaid did you get?  NonZealot | 12/05/06
Notes!  ladyirol | 12/07/06
Since your reply was so polite...  NonZealot | 12/07/06
Thanks...  ladyirol | 12/07/06
That was really blindly prejudiced, you know.  aellath | 12/06/06
Come back when...  Dr. John | 12/06/06
I don't think you are right...  ladyirol | 12/07/06
not funny- tedious  hirez | 01/08/07
god you bore....  hirez | 01/08/07
built in cameras?  m88k | 12/05/06
Re: Built-In Cameras  ladyirol | 12/05/06
You have got to be kidding  xhorxhius2000@... | 12/05/06
Did anybody get the camera on Macbook to work on windows xp??  tmzz@... | 12/06/06
Zealots don't contribute much to the world  mmay | 12/06/06
Thanks for your comments...  ladyirol | 12/07/06
Bill Gates is evil.  nomorems | 12/07/06
I respectfully disagree  mmay | 12/08/06
compare apples to apples  spoonerx@... | 12/08/06
Couldn't be modified  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/11/06
Jealousy is unbecoming..  SOMSS_z | 12/08/06
You can use statistics to prove anything you like...  paul.graville@... | 12/08/06
Setting the record straight  LiemAtDell | 12/08/06
Dell reply  Ed BurnetteZDNet Moderator | 12/12/06
Compare what People really buy, not what Dell wish everyone would buy!  Pookie12 | 12/08/06
I was in an Apple store today...  Cayble | 12/10/06
The WORLD will only TRULY BE FREE  Feldwebel Wolfenstool | 12/12/06
Did you consider software on the machine?  lwvirden | 12/12/06
Jim Alchin (Microsoft VP) says he prefers a Mac.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 12/13/06
Apparently you didn't read teh article  runningfire | 12/13/06
Of course he back peddeled.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 12/13/06
Don't confuse what Jim wrote to ...  ShadeTree | 12/13/06
Amazing spin & attempted damage control...  MacCanuck | 12/13/06
Security  runningfire | 12/13/06

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