On CBS.com: Prank Friends With Barney's HIMYM App
BNET Business Network:
BNET
TechRepublic
ZDNet

June 6th, 2006

Why Microsoft should put user data in a separate volume

Posted by George Ou @ 1:50 pm

Categories: Infrastructure, Security, Vista

Tags:

When I attended Microsoft’s Vista preview two weeks ago, Microsoft’s Jim Allchin gave a talk and answered some questions to the press.  During his talk, Mr. Allchin told us a story about some memories he shared with Steve Ballmer.  The way the story goes, Steve Ballmer walked in to Jim’s office one day and plopped a big desktop PC on his desk.  Apparently, Ballmer had spent the entire weekend trying to clean spyware off of a friend’s computer and couldn’t so he put it in Allchin’s hand.  After tens of man-hours of engineering time, they finally managed to clean the PC to a workable state and sent it back to the owners.

The reason I bring this story up is that it explains precisely the reasoning behind Mike Danseglio’s recommendation that infected PCs be nuked and rebuilt from scratch.  The pundits jumped on Danseglio’s recommendation and scolded him for being a coward and admitting defeat on the spyware front but any security expert will tell you that unless you had a checksum database of every single file on your system drive regardless of the operating system, there is no way to be sure the system is actually clean.  To make this case, I wrote "wiping an infected computer is best for any OS".  As Jim Allchin’s engineering team is fully aware of, cleaning an infected computer is not easy and it can costs tens of man-hours to fix.

Following up my blog to respond to some of the harsh feedback that I too was being a coward, I wrote "ego and computer maintenance don’t mix".  Having been a PC repair tech in my college days and being the designated friend that fixed your PC most of my life, I can say with certainty that it never makes sense to attempt to repair Windows if it’s infected badly or is unstable.  I even had a Geek Squad member under the handle of AlisaK2000 explain that this is exactly what they do whenever a computer requires anything more than a simple scan and removal.  The problem with this is that backing up and restoring the data is no trivial task because Microsoft defaults the data partition to share the same logical volume as the operating system.  Another computer repair tech explains that they would essentially give the customer two options.  They either forfeited their data to a drive format and be charged for 2 hour labor to rebuild Windows or they paid 4-5 hours labor have the data backed up first and then restored after Windows was rebuilt.  This is a choice that no one should ever have to make!

Even system integrators like Dell and HP offer an image recovery disk that sets a computer back to factory defaults which means it rebuilds the entire OS along with applications that came with your PC within 30 minutes.  Then whenever a tech support person needs to spend more than 15 minutes on the phone troubleshooting the PC, they ask the user to insert the recovery disk and re-image their system.  The problem with this has always been the user data mixed in with the OS and the user has to make the tough choice if they want their computer to work normal again or if they want their data more.  This same problem even affects corporate PC images because it isn’t easy to shift the entire "Documents and Settings" folder on to a different partition and simply relocating "My Documents" is no substitute.  There are some manual ways of do this, but it’s very difficult to do and it requires a special installation routine with special command line options.

Whenever an OS needs to be backed up or restored, the challenge of having a shared system and data partition affects hundreds of millions of users and Microsoft’s default location Documents and Settings is a big factor in this problem.  Having user data live on the system volume makes it extremely difficult to take a system snapshot.  The OS usually takes up 3 to 8 GBs, but user data typically takes up 10 times that amount!  If you have to take a system image, you’re typically forced to image 50 GBs instead of just the 5 GBs that the OS and Applications would need.  Having separated data is essential to the system imaging strategy for the home or the business.  The fact that Windows Vista now includes a system backup utility and a whole new corporate imaging deployment tool is wonderful, but that only increases the need for data separation.

If we’re talking about data encryption, there as been much talk lately of Microsoft’s BitLocker technology.  However, there is still a need for Microsoft’s improved EFS (Encrypted File System) in Vista to protect user data.  While Vista’s BitLocker is touted as a "full drive encryption" solution, it turns out that it’s more suitable for protecting just the operating system volume rather than the user data since BitLocker is not PKI based due to the limitation that PKI relies on infrastructure that is non-existent in a pre-boot environment.  This means that you will have to put all user data in a separate physical or logical storage volume so you can apply EFS to just the data volume and BitLocker encryption to the system drive.

When I asked Jim Allchin about the need to separate user data, he initially suggested using roaming profiles but I wouldn’t accept that answer because not everyone uses that and it still involves a massive transfer of data to recover a system.  I asked Mr. Allchin why Microsoft couldn’t simply change the default location of "Documents and Settings" to a data partition or data drive.  I added that no legacy applications use "Documents and Settings" via absolute addressing anyways in the first place and everything that uses relative addressing won’t be affected anyways.  As this went on, Mr. Allchin admitted that it would probably not break too many things and he seemed to at least be open to the idea.  After the presentation, Mr. Allchin sent his Executive Director of Communications to follow up with me and I intend to send her a copy of this blog as an open letter to Mr. Allchin and Microsoft.  I’ll finish with the following summary.

  • Windows (or any other OS) once infected is extremely difficult to repair.  Jim Allchin’s story with Steve Ballmer clearly proves this.
  • Users are forced to choose between paying more for backup and recovery service or forfeit all their data.
  • Corporations waste a lot of time restoring systems images when data is mixed in with the system partition.
  • Techniques like roaming profiles are not always practical and are not a substitute for good default data separation.
  • Imaging a combined system/data volume is impractical due to the massive size.
  • Running hybrid BitLocker and EFS mode requires separate user data
  • Changing the default location of user data and the volume it resides on shouldn’t be difficult for Windows Vista and it certainly shouldn’t break any legacy applications any more than the new "C:\Users" folder structure would.  There is no better time to make this kind of correction to make all of our lives easier.

Mr. Allchin, I await your response.  Thank you for listening.

George Ou is Technical Director of ZDNet. See his full profile and disclosure of his industry affiliations.

  • Talkback
  • Most Recent of 188 Talkback(s)
Sorry to inform it won't happen
They won't change because they fear their OEMs will get upset over the extra support needed to explain partitions. It's sad. I even spoke with Allchin by email and many on his team.... (Read the rest)
Posted by: georgeou Posted on: 12/17/06 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
Exactly! kudos to you  dragosani | 06/06/06
FSVO "Too many"  Yagotta B. Kidding | 06/06/06
Microsoft already moved the user folder in Vista  georgeou | 06/06/06
he said file system  shis-ka-bob | 06/06/06
But that's my whole point!  georgeou | 06/06/06
George...  zkiwi | 06/07/06
Use mountpoints.  linux_for_me | 06/08/06
It works, but...  (``-_-´´) | 06/12/06
Simple - use 2 drives  leojohns@... | 06/08/06
use 2 driver - not good enough  Jxn | 06/09/06
You may want to look into roaming profiles...  ye | 06/06/06
Roaming profiles is NOT the solution  georgeou | 06/06/06
well for most users  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
partitioning a snap with Partition Magic  JohnGoz | 06/07/06
D for data, not roaming profiles  grillin_man | 06/07/06
How did you move Documents & Settings to  allancrf | 06/09/06
Try Folder Redirection  RocketEater | 06/07/06
You're confusing two things here...  ye | 06/07/06
99%  richvball44 | 06/11/06
Ummm  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
I think you're confusing...  ye | 06/07/06
Drive letter isn't hard coded  Bill.Hagen | 06/07/06
C:\Users - is a poor implementation of user's data  LinuxUser&XPGamerGraphic | 06/08/06
Built in to 2000, XP and up  jacec | 06/06/06
Like I said, it ain't trivial  georgeou | 06/06/06
let the ISV's update their software  jacec | 06/06/06
I don't mind the drive letters so much, Microsoft should lead the ISVs  georgeou | 06/06/06
It's a lot simpler in *NIX... "symlinks"  Knorthern Knight | 06/06/06
Amen  NonZealot | 06/06/06
Same thing has been available in Windows 2000  georgeou | 06/06/06
Junctions is probably the simplest  mrlinux | 06/07/06
drive letters  hillman.d@... | 06/12/06
Not if they're logo certified for Vista or WinXP  georgeou | 06/14/06
RE: It's a lot simpler in *NIX... "symlinks"  rrusson_z | 06/07/06
Or...  cashaww | 06/07/06
sysinternals Junction  (``-_-´´) | 06/12/06
Agree 100%  Robert Crocker | 06/06/06
Correction  georgeou | 06/06/06
System recovery  georgeou | 06/06/06
sounds crazy  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
Checkout Partition Magic  JohnGoz | 06/07/06
You have to....  cashaww | 06/07/06
It's not that difficult...  ye | 06/06/06
Still a reg hack  nucrash | 06/06/06
So what?  ye | 06/07/06
Thanks, but I'm asking for default settings  georgeou | 06/07/06
default settings must be as they are  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
Perhaps you missed the point?  toddtee | 06/07/06
Small harddrives shouldn't be a problem  voska | 06/07/06
Where..  cashaww | 06/07/06
In recycled PC shop  voska | 06/07/06
An OEM can make this the default...  ye | 06/07/06
Good suggestion, but...  professordnm | 06/07/06
Most users are lost...  ye | 06/07/06
I did this once  voska | 06/07/06
What about all other refs to C:\Documents and Settings  dramm | 07/02/06
Best of luck Mr. Ou  nucrash | 06/06/06
Thanks, I'm following up with Mr Allchin  georgeou | 06/07/06
What a concept! (eom)  BillyG_n_SC | 06/07/06
Horrors! George! You CAN'T be SERIOUS!  OButterball | 06/07/06
A new linux  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
Uh, sit down for a second, IceTheNet.  OButterball | 06/07/06
Good idea but....  RocketEater | 06/07/06
well..  richvball44 | 06/11/06
Good Data Practices  BMcKinlay | 06/06/06
*smirking*  Roger Ramjet | 06/07/06
here here!  shis-ka-bob | 06/07/06
Remember Win 3.1  D-cat | 06/07/06
hear hear  richvball44 | 06/11/06
Network drives  pkrdk | 06/09/06
Call me old-fashioned  MarkLomas | 06/07/06
Its Called DVD Rom  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
I have 2 disks  Greenbaum in UK | 06/07/06
Small problem ...  mrlinux | 06/07/06
Separation of OS and user data  ejjinc | 06/07/06
user data in a separate volume  mike.murphy@... | 06/07/06
Yes but...  LeeC | 06/07/06
MS Tweak UI does this  rrusson_z | 06/07/06
Tweak UI good, but not complete  MerryOtter | 06/07/06
Moving dirs, and Live Windows  D-cat | 06/07/06
But MS Tweak UI is classified as a "Toy"  pgrondier | 06/08/06
Lets also abolish the registry...  Treking | 06/07/06
your programs would disappear also.  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
Mixing Application and OS info is always bad!  Treking | 06/07/06
true and good point  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
Please explain...  LeeC | 06/07/06
Bad design ?  pkrdk | 06/12/06
Message has been deleted.  slack9999 | 07/13/06
Abolish registry, or at least make it usable and safe.  pkrdk | 06/07/06
Tampering with the Reg  D-cat | 06/07/06
It's called tampering because...  LeeC | 06/07/06
Not user fault - system fault.  pkrdk | 06/09/06
User registry settings are stored in the user's Documents & Settings folder  PB_z | 06/07/06
Data Isolation is a Requirement  grstanley0 | 06/07/06
Answer this then...  LeeC | 06/07/06
Easy  pkrdk | 06/12/06
User Customized Application Settings  eh.canuck@... | 06/07/06
Good One  IceTheNet@... | 06/07/06
User data in a separate volume  Red-don | 06/07/06
Separate My Documents Folder  jdeleo@... | 06/07/06
Microsoft Place User Data in a Separate Volume  cjsalva | 06/07/06
The More Things Change..... Back to the Future  dl@... | 06/07/06
Novell iFolder Open Source Project  AppealsIT | 06/07/06
More iFolder benefits  strankay@... | 06/07/06
You're kidding me, right?  mrcomputer@... | 06/07/06
"Data is obviously important, but the real cost in re-formating..."  IT_Guy_z | 06/07/06
Never happen! Separate partition means another possible OS.  jjon2121 | 06/07/06
Don't Forget the Rest of Us  Gray_Beard | 06/07/06
Some implications: Partitions; Registry  MerryOtter | 06/07/06
The registry is already subdivided  PB_z | 06/07/06
Separation of data  gvrowe@... | 06/07/06
Thanks George, Please add something else  don3605 | 06/07/06
.NET managed code is already like that  georgeou | 06/07/06
Separting OS  ddrakewi | 06/07/06
I do that too because of games  georgeou | 06/07/06
Alan Briggs  alanrbriggs | 06/07/06
Apps do need to be separated, but one battle at a time  georgeou | 06/07/06
separate partition  pablito@... | 06/07/06
One size fits all OS (constraints thereof)  DelbertPGH | 06/07/06
os-apps-data  Harry Samuel | 06/07/06
You are right and MS wrong...  Jxn | 06/09/06
Drive space was at a premium in the old days  georgeou | 06/09/06
You betcha  Chiatzu | 06/07/06
anticompetitive practices was the problem  Castanet | 06/07/06
You think to much about MS  Jxn | 06/09/06
And What About the Print Cue?  rickearley | 06/07/06
What a Swell Idea !  code_flogger | 06/07/06
Hey, it's progress!  JDThompson | 06/07/06
Reinstall Windows without losing data  pineapplelaw@... | 06/07/06
Ever heard of DVD-RW's  jackie40d@... | 06/08/06
Designed Obsolescence  hanamc@... | 06/07/06
Don't tell me it was easier to backup in the DOS days  georgeou | 06/07/06
It depends on your POV  D-cat | 06/07/06
Use W2K NTbackup. Copy 'uncopyable' files from system32/config.  jjon2121 | 06/15/06
Actually...  ju1ce | 06/08/06
I agree ....  IanX | 06/07/06
This is silly idea..  eliwap | 06/07/06
Do you really know where your files are?  hanamc@... | 06/07/06
Data Separation  irvingy@... | 06/08/06
Seperate OS & Programs too  TakeIT2 | 06/07/06
I couldn't agree more ...  mwagner@... | 06/07/06
We've all been bit  georgeou | 06/07/06
I'm in the same boat...  ju1ce | 06/08/06
Message has been deleted.  slack9999 | 07/13/06
Windows Data on separate vol.  charles.simon@... | 06/07/06
Don't you have a second Hard drive ?  jackie40d@... | 06/08/06
Hard drives are big today  georgeou | 06/09/06
Even More than that  Species8472 | 06/10/06
Here's an idea...  LeeC | 06/07/06
Separate User Data Volume  jbaviera@... | 06/07/06
Message has been deleted.  slack9999 | 07/13/06
Choose partition during setup  me@... | 06/07/06
.Net and per-application settings file  me@... | 06/07/06
Yes, though a different issue  georgeou | 06/07/06
set system and data apart  amj2006 | 06/07/06
The only way this would work  five.cent.family@... | 06/07/06
Yes, a data partition, but use E:, Not D:!  Dreamer.fithp | 06/07/06
On line state restoration (and data backup)  stevey_d | 06/07/06
and PCs could have a fancy bios  stevey_d | 06/07/06
one drive to rule them all  mist42nz | 06/07/06
Already done  TonyMcS | 06/07/06
Games are too big for C drive  georgeou | 06/07/06
Old problems ms windows never learn how to solve.  michael_t | 06/07/06
I have seen it  georgeou | 06/07/06
Exactly! Been doing it for years...  webwords@... | 06/07/06
does it work  giskard | 06/07/06
Only one of the many Wincrud problems  jackofalltradesmasterofnone | 06/07/06
I do it with XP  MalumRegnat\ | 06/07/06
Not relevant here  georgeou | 06/07/06
i want to know why  richvball44 | 06/08/06
You're "peeing into the (MSFT) wind" George!  nerdnick | 06/08/06
Agreed, but go 1 Step Further  jpr75_z | 06/08/06
Completely disagree  Fred Fredrickson | 06/08/06
security experts  CobraA1 | 06/08/06
I NEVER put it in DEFAULT !  jackie40d@... | 06/08/06
I completely agree, but why not app directory too?  ramunno | 06/08/06
I do that sometimes  georgeou | 06/09/06
Hey George! Anything NEW on this issue?  pundamentalist | 11/01/06
They won't change because they fear their OEMs will get upset  georgeou | 12/17/06
I outlined and solved all problems ...  solyom@... | 06/08/06
not until Windows ver T W I S B (the Way It Should Be)  jimiznhb | 06/08/06
dealing with user data when backing up  stonedumpr@... | 06/08/06
Huh?  Nobody_really | 06/15/06
Spyware is just advanced Windows repair  kochrep-112376069 | 07/01/06
Message has been deleted.  slack9999 | 07/13/06
Message has been deleted.  slack9999 | 07/13/06
YES Please!  SignalsAU | 09/03/06
Sorry to inform it won't happen  georgeou | 12/17/06

What do you think?

SponsoredWhite Papers, Webcasts, and Downloads

Click Here
advertisement

Recent Entries

Top Rated

    advertisement

    Archives

    ZDNet Blogs

    White Papers, Webcasts, and Downloads

    SmartPlanet

    Click Here