One question
tombalablomba | 08/20/07
|

Obviously the hash/checksum would be the same
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
 
Absurd and Impossible! How could it be?
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
  
Yes, of course
Bob.Kerns | 08/21/07
|
   
i agree, thanks for the intelligent reply!
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
    
Any given song would have the same fingerprint
Logics | 08/22/07
|
     
while clever, unfortunatly untrue, look it up
jjarman | 08/22/07
|
    
Fingerprinting
Bob.Kerns | 08/22/07
|
     
robust audio "fingerprinting", very different purpose, extracted not added
jjarman | 08/22/07
|
     
but then again, you probably already know all this
jjarman | 08/22/07
|
     
Really cool...
bitplane | 08/22/07
|

yeah
pcguy777 | 08/21/07
|
Artists need to stand up to this
phburks | 08/20/07
|

Why should they?
nucrash | 08/20/07
|
 
I'd rather have DRM then
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
  
These both seem like stripable items
nucrash | 08/20/07
|
 
hash mark/drm
merc2dogs` | 08/20/07
|
  
I have a simliar story
nucrash | 08/20/07
|
   
...and a bottle of rum
lauren.glenn@... | 08/23/07
|
  
Music Library
cheesyone | 08/21/07
|
   
Buy Dream Theater's Systematic Chaos CD
lauren.glenn@... | 08/23/07
|
  
The best, cheapest music
grail@... | 08/21/07
|
 
Because artists make very little on sales
big red one | 08/21/07
|
 
Hmmm, because it's not their music that's being sold
maldain | 08/21/07
|
 
An artist cares about his/her works of art.
phburks | 08/22/07
|

Chances are you already have if you ....
ShadeTree | 08/20/07
|
 
Slim chance
voska | 08/20/07
|
  
Done!
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|

Tainted
adr5@... | 08/21/07
|
 
If they can hear it they'll care.
phburks | 08/22/07
|
Ou is wrong again
frgough | 08/20/07
|

Additional note
frgough | 08/20/07
|
 
George didnt study law...
mrlinux | 08/20/07
|
 
please please please ...
s_souche | 08/20/07
|
  
You're thinking of Nyquist more than Shannon [nt]
jacarter3 | 08/20/07
|
   
sampling theorem
s_souche | 08/20/07
|
    
60KHz or 600
reedjjjr | 08/21/07
|
  
Doesn't change the theory
frgough | 08/20/07
|
   
And..
slopoke | 08/20/07
|
    
Back to DRM
blackRiver | 08/20/07
|
    
One tiny obstacle
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
  
My point was that either you can hear it or you can't
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
   
How?
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
    
You just told us how.
slopoke | 08/20/07
|
     
1/2 the story
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
     
You're thinking DRM
frgough | 08/20/07
|
     
Nice try, wrong math
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
     
Answering the wrong question
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
     
Where did you get the forensic tool to reverse-engineer?
Resuna | 08/21/07
|
   
does not follow
Resuna | 08/21/07
|
   
Hamming distance proves Ou's original premise
warren@... | 08/21/07
|
   
Can't hear it, but maybe worthless, or evil
Bob.Kerns | 08/21/07
|
    
I was thinking the same thing myself...
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
    
I really appreciate the quality and thought in your replies to this article
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
   
Hypocritical? Where is the Proof?
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
   
To filter it out you would have to....
DCMann | 08/23/07
|
 
Question
andrewjg | 08/20/07
|
  
An example
frgough | 08/20/07
|
   
You not attacking the argument
voska | 08/20/07
|
    
See my Proof in the pudding response below
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
     
Yes but.
slopoke | 08/20/07
|
     
What's to stop someone from striping it
voska | 08/20/07
|
     
I've tried image watermarking before and it sucks
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
     
George, how are you doing it?
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
    
Percetible to what?
frgough | 08/20/07
|
     
How's that stop the pirates though?
voska | 08/20/07
|
    
How do you prevent theft?
danson@... | 08/21/07
|
  
The modifications happen throughout the song
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
 
It looks like you need a course in signals
Linux Geek | 08/20/07
|
  
Imperfect signal
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
 
Then that would be a worthless watermark
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
  
No, George not worthless any more than locking a car door is worthless
Absolutely | 08/21/07
|
  
All CP is worthless.
NeuromancerLV | 08/21/07
|
  
Almost all forms of protection are bypassable by experts...
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
   
typo correcion
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
 
Read the article
zclayton2 | 08/21/07
|

no difference + no difference + no difference = a difference
bportlock | 08/20/07
|
 
SNR, part III
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
  
Yagotta, your "noise level" ratio is nonsense
bmerc | 08/21/07
|
   
Encoding
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/21/07
|
   
Big bits, little bits
Bob.Kerns | 08/21/07
|
    
Typo alert!
Bob.Kerns | 08/22/07
|

Exactly
nucrash | 08/20/07
|
 
subliminal messages are still within the ...
mrlinux | 08/20/07
|
  
Quiet please!!!
slopoke | 08/20/07
|
   
Now I have a sudden urge to go see Hannah Montana
nucrash | 08/20/07
|

Think about it for a second
voska | 08/20/07
|
 
Not exactly
frgough | 08/20/07
|
  
That's my point
voska | 08/20/07
|
   
Interesting question
frgough | 08/20/07
|
    
You're right
voska | 08/20/07
|
     
The fundamental difference
frgough | 08/20/07
|
    
There's an easier way to track music or videos. It's called a hash.
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
     
Yeah, but isn't that easy to defeat?
blackRiver | 08/20/07
|
     
Easy vs. effective
frgough | 08/20/07
|
     
Won't work.
slopoke | 08/20/07
|
     
Watermarks don't work either, but it ruins the music
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
     
I say we call the RIAA
nucrash | 08/21/07
|

You miss his whole point
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
 
Two arguments
frgough | 08/20/07
|
  
I disagree
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
   
-60,000 dB
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
    
re: -60,000 dB
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
     
Definitions
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
     
Sorting through the technobabble
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
     
Rosetta stone
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
     
re: Rosetta stone
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
   
taking the analogy too far
frgough | 08/20/07
|
    
re: taking the analogy too far
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
   
See my challenge at the end
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
 
Broken syllogism
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
 
It isn't "easy" to most.
Absolutely | 08/21/07
|

You missed the point
bmerc | 08/21/07
|

Does it matter if Ou is wrong or right?
Narg | 08/21/07
|

you missed his point entirely
bluefox83 | 08/21/07
|

Which human's detection?
Weldon@... | 08/21/07
|

frgough is wrong again
grail@... | 08/21/07
|
They STILL dont get it...
supercharlie | 08/20/07
|

You still don't get it
s_souche | 08/20/07
|
 
I don't think can work with DRM
voska | 08/20/07
|
 
getting back to why we aren't buying in the first place
shraven | 08/21/07
|

lol
KTLA | 08/20/07
|

Correction, unrestricted and unpolluted music is right answer
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
 
Now that I agree with.
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
One Illegal SCAM replace by another illegal SCAM
Mectron | 08/20/07
|

Not illegal
KTLA | 08/20/07
|
 
I am sure he meant Immoral
nucrash | 08/20/07
|
  
No it isn't
KTLA | 08/20/07
|
   
Much like assigning you a Passport
nucrash | 08/20/07
|
    
Message has been deleted.
shraven | 08/21/07
|
    
Nope
KTLA | 08/21/07
|
I am in the pro watermarking camp
TripleII | 08/20/07
|

Proof in the pudding
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
 
What happens if you strip it
voska | 08/20/07
|
  
It isn't worth it
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
   
I'm all for watermarks
voska | 08/20/07
|
    
You speak the truth
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
    
However
Michael Kelly | 08/20/07
|
   
question
Controlr | 08/21/07
|
  
Also, it's not the same boat
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
   
You are right in most of your points...
sashkashurik | 08/21/07
|
 
Excuse my ignorance
Michael Kelly | 08/20/07
|
  
Yes, it will be doable
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
  
Hay in a needlestack
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
 
Questions
Patrick Jones | 08/21/07
|

There's a slippery slope here...
msalzberg | 08/20/07
|
 
There is a way to corrupt anything.
TripleII | 08/20/07
|

Then embed the username in the file
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
 
No one says they HAVE to come guns blazing
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
 
Or even better George...
mrlinux | 08/20/07
|

replace DRM and Watermarking with better music worth buying
lauren.glenn@... | 08/23/07
|
 
continued....
lauren.glenn@... | 08/23/07
|
"For all Intensive purposes"...
Steve Summers | 08/20/07
|

That "begs the question..."
KTLA | 08/20/07
|
STUPID
voska | 08/20/07
|

RE: STUPID
dinkosaurus | 08/21/07
|

exactly
pcguy777 | 08/21/07
|
Hashes are based on the file's data...
johnay | 08/20/07
|

But it still takes user action
georgeou | 08/20/07
|

Hash
barrie@... | 08/21/07
|
Whether this story is right or wrong....
BitTwiddler | 08/20/07
|

I fully agree....
crash89 | 08/20/07
|
 
DRM is bad, but it doesn't mess with the quality
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
  
Well they can add the watermark above...
mrlinux | 08/20/07
|
   
Again, that can be filtered out
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
   
Poor example
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
   
Thats not the idea..purity is.
pcguy777 | 08/21/07
|
  
Who says it does?
BitTwiddler | 08/20/07
|
   
And I said that already. But I don't want even MORE degredation.
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
  
Nor does watermarking
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
   
Again, if it can't be heard, it can be stripped
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
    
Proof by repeated assertion
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
    
theyll catch a few here and there
pcguy777 | 08/21/07
|
     
they only need to catch a few ...
ironicslip@... | 08/23/07
|

Link me to 44 KHz license free song
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
This is why the mix tape will never go away
Been_Done_Before | 08/20/07
|
You forgot one thing about DRM
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
A better watermark example
TripleII | 08/20/07
|

I don't need to hand code.
slopoke | 08/20/07
|
 
If you have the pristine copy, why did you buy it?
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
  
You miss the point.
slopoke | 08/20/07
|
   
Yes, watermarking has all the problems of DRM and worse
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
    
Being Obtuse?
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
     
You've encountered the Ou
frgough | 08/20/07
|
     
Both hands tied
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
     
Missing the point
Richard Flude | 08/20/07
|
   
Well that's where DRM fails
voska | 08/20/07
|
    
That's the point
slopoke | 08/20/07
|
 
new hashes too
pcguy777 | 08/21/07
|

I can't access your JPEG
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
 
nevermind
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|

That was easy
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
Steganography
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|

You realize of course
frgough | 08/20/07
|
 
Seriously
frgough | 08/20/07
|

You're a pretty bad reader... or dumb
stormculture | 08/20/07
|
 
That, or maybe
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|

re: Steganography
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
 
It's all just mathematics
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
  
I'm not sure you understand the mathematics yourself
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
   
Teach your grandmother to suck eggs
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
    
Are we talking fixed positions or not?
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
    
Wish I'd seen your message...
Bob.Kerns | 08/21/07
|
   
re-read shannon - one time pads & pluaisble deniability
ironicslip@... | 08/23/07
|

Steganography
joelkruissink@... | 08/21/07
|
I don't care for either of them
Shelendrea | 08/20/07
|
RIAA lawsuits part 2
cmdrrickhunter@... | 08/20/07
|
Watermarking *IS* DRM
rpmyers1 | 08/20/07
|

At some level I can agree.
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
 
It does control what you can and can't do
rpmyers1 | 08/20/07
|
  
Actually, it doesn't
TripleII | 08/20/07
|

Watermarking *IS* DRM
barrie@... | 08/21/07
|
Oops, mispoke, a better challenge
TripleII | 08/20/07
|

Here you go!
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
 
If they're going to all that trouble, they'll just RIP the CD
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
  
Then DO IT!
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
   
Easiest way is to steal a credit card
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
    
Again, back to DRM vs Marking
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
  
Rip all you like
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
   
So what? We'll just upload it.
georgeou | 08/20/07
|
    
FSVO "Angry"
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
     
I'd ask you to help me invent this further...
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
 
Lemme know if it is destroyed . . .
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
  
"Destroy" is easy
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
  
Partially
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
   
Here's what I did
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
   
AM vs. FM
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
    
Yes, mine is very crackable
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
     
Overdose
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|
   
I think that the trained ear...
msalzberg | 08/20/07
|
  
Cool site for sharing files too
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
   
Very nice - thanks!
CobraA1 | 08/20/07
|
    
Yeah, noscript for me too
TripleII | 08/20/07
|
Spot this, George
Yagotta B. Kidding | 08/20/07
|

Yes, OK, but...
Mitch 74 | 08/22/07
|
As long as cd's are still being sold
zmud | 08/20/07
|
What's the problem?
RKristin | 08/21/07
|
No its not
crypt2121 | 08/21/07
|
learn digital
CaptOska | 08/21/07
|
I doubt that!
Dr_Bill | 08/21/07
|

I Agree Absolutely
Kromaethius | 08/21/07
|

I agree 100%
dmacnevin | 08/21/07
|
a response
CaptOska | 08/21/07
|
Give customer what they want
pineapplelaw@... | 08/21/07
|
Record companies are marginally more savvy than the MPAA
gary@... | 08/21/07
|

are you sure you didn't have those beers already?
shraven | 08/21/07
|

Movie industry is Hollywood: Music biz is Worldwide
ironicslip@... | 08/23/07
|
Sorry, George, but you're wrong on this one
Dr.C | 08/21/07
|

Dr. C. is right -- where is the outcry re: software SLA/EULA
ironicslip@... | 08/23/07
|
FUDmeister Ou is at it again
comp_indiana | 08/21/07
|

Nonsense
vikingnyc@... | 08/21/07
|
Which protects IT property rights?
russell@... | 08/21/07
|
weak
pcguy777 | 08/21/07
|
Buy the CD!
gary@... | 08/21/07
|
Doesn't matter...
msdead | 08/21/07
|
hashing wont work
pcguy777 | 08/21/07
|
They don't care about analog filtering
Resuna | 08/21/07
|
No, it's "accountability"
Wizard Prang | 08/21/07
|
Just say no to domination
enovikoff | 08/21/07
|
Keeping lazy people honest
warren@... | 08/21/07
|

forgot first paragraph
warren@... | 08/21/07
|
Just as shortsighted as DRM
mikecepek | 08/21/07
|
Waste of time and money.
alanc5 | 08/21/07
|
Watermarking? Potentially far less onerous.
plettj@... | 08/21/07
|
fight with $$$
atomicsupergeek | 08/21/07
|
Perceptibility NOT same as removability
skeptic-2 | 08/21/07
|
"worse than audio CDs or DVDs"?
labarker | 08/21/07
|
Complaining about the serial number on your stereo ??
theendofhardware.com | 08/21/07
|

assymetric watermark??? hmmm it's just KEYS
ironicslip@... | 08/23/07
|
Ou raiser a serious issue.
wolfchen@... | 08/21/07
|
Still Buying CD's
wwwsupport | 08/21/07
|
Your survey left out an option to select...
coverlt@... | 08/21/07
|
astronomically small, that's whay you meant
royalstream | 08/21/07
|
AS IT IS
brushmaster | 08/21/07
|
Get REAL
dustyphoto@... | 08/21/07
|

Nice
Sickthing | 08/21/07
|
Your primary assumption is incorrect!
jjarman | 08/21/07
|
Recording Industry Fails to Maintain Loyalty
vancegilbert@... | 08/21/07
|

It's a fact! No honor amoung theives
Ole Man | 08/24/07
|
What to do...?
intj-astral@... | 08/21/07
|
Watermark is OK
chromeronin | 08/21/07
|
I just say no...
mikifinaz1@... | 08/21/07
|
Hashing worthless
pwright2@... | 08/21/07
|
New Copy Protection From Midas Records
pqijewul | 08/21/07
|
I can't belive anyone would seriously prefer DRM to watermarking!
Wolfpup | 08/22/07
|

Forgot to mention
Wolfpup | 08/22/07
|
The real issue
sarogers@... | 08/22/07
|
P2P Sniffing
DagonSphere | 08/22/07
|
This is OBVIOUS
chaz15 | 08/23/07
|
forensics do not equal the original
ironicslip@... | 08/23/07
|
fingerprinting is a squeeky wheel
ironicslip@... | 08/23/07
|
Yogatta B GETS IT ...
ironicslip@... | 08/23/07
|
Thanks, George
blarman_z | 08/23/07
|
You don't question Windows-only DRM because you're a fanboy
willykreim@... | 08/24/07
|
With Compression, it's already crap, so a little watermarking...
Boomslang | 08/25/07
|
You have completely missed the point
rbird@... | 09/10/07
|
Here's what I'd watermark in the file...
Ad Astra | 09/19/07
|