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September 28th, 2007

More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!

Posted by George Ou @ 2:37 am

Categories: Browsers, Consumer electronics, Desktop, Development, Microsoft, Security, Vista

Tags: Microsoft Windows XP, Driver, Microsoft Windows Vista, Apple Mac OS X, Microsoft Corp., Microsoft Windows Vista SP1, Don Reisinger, Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Windows Vista (Longhorn), Operating Systems

In the latest round of hysteria to be written about Windows Vista, Don Reisinger regurgitates the usual hysteria about Windows Vista mixed in with a pinch of facts here and there.  Don spouts off the usual nonsense about sales, UAC, and even DRM.  Despite the fact that bashing Vista is quite the popular sport these days, I’m going to see if I can set him straight with an honest and factual assessment of Windows Vista.

Are Vista sales really poor?
Everyone knows that Windows Vista retail box sales are poor, but does that matter when Microsoft relies overwhelmingly on sales to OEM PC makers?  If you focus only on the retail box sales, you’re missing the real picture because Vista has sold more than 60 million licenses and ~78% of those sales are Vista Premium edition.  Don complains about Windows Vista Ultimate edition and I actually agree with him that it’s overpriced and under delivers but Microsoft doesn’t need to “save itself” if Vista Ultimate fails, more like an “oh well”.

Does it matter if a few people revert to XP?
Even if a whopping 20% of computer buyers downgrade and revert to Windows XP for whatever reason, that still leaves 80% who stay with Windows Vista.  That means hardware makers and ISVs (Independent Software Vendors) have to deal with Windows Vista now or later whether they like it or not if they want to stay in business.  The fact that 60 million copies were sold in the first 6 months since launch pretty much confirms Vista will become the dominant OS by default.

How about Vista drivers?
There are no questions about it, a fair number of Vista drivers during the first 2 months stunk badly.  Vista implements a brand new driver model which offers a little more separation between the driver and the kernel so that a bad driver is less likely to crash the entire system.  The price for this is that there is a brand new learning curve and it took a few months for the hardware companies to get it right.  For the most part, everything is working well but there are still some older devices that don’t have drivers and will never get drivers for Windows Vista and much of that is because the hardware vendors want you to buy new hardware.

Is it fair to expect a hardware company to write drivers for a 3+ year old device? Probably not.  Is it fair to expect users to buy new hardware because they can’t get Vista drivers for a one year old device? Definitely no!  Reputable hardware companies that want to keep customer loyalty will go back as far as they can to create drivers for older hardware.  Was it Microsoft’s fault that the drivers didn’t work well at first?  Technically no but that isn’t going to matter to consumers and they’ll take their anger out on Microsoft and the hardware maker.  Fortunately, the driver situation has stabilized but it’s always good to check for drivers before you upgrade a computer to Vista and before you buy a piece of hardware.

How about application compatibility in Windows Vista?
There’s no question about it, applications will break in Vista and it’s probably the #1 reason some people are reverting back to Windows XP.  This is primarily due to the fact that many applications never followed Windows development guidelines set since 2000.  One of the worst offenders is Intuit which refused to properly write QuickBooks right up to the 2006 version.  Intuit never followed Windows development guidelines that have existed since Windows 2000 and XP for Windows logo certification and they - like many other software makers - used Vista as an opportunity to sell a new version of QuickBooks 2007.  If you bought QuickBooks 2006 or earlier, you were out of luck and it wouldn’t run on your new computer and you had to buy QuickBooks 2007.

Microsoft asked developers for 7 years to clean up their act but drew the line in the sand with Windows Vista which comes with UAC (User Access Control) on by default.  That finally forced vendors like Intuit to properly code their application and not violate security best practices.  If UAC does nothing else and even if people turn it off, it has had the desired effect of cleaning up the Windows development community.

Vista and Internet Explorer 7 also breaks a lot of applications in the name of drawing a line in the sand for security.  Microsoft will get criticized for not getting rid of things like Active X but they’ll also get criticized for breaking dangerous coding techniques and the vast majority of Active X controls have been disabled in Windows Vista by default.  There are still plenty of web applications that don’t work inside Windows Vista and Internet Explorer 7 and vendors like Kodak will try to drag their feet but they will have to deal with it sooner or later unless they want to alienate the 60 million (since summer) and growing Vista user base.  My colleague David Berlind questions why Microsoft needs to break so many legacy applications and the answer is security.  It’s a known fact that until something is hard broken, no one will change anything.  Is this going to be painful?  Certainly.  But it has to be done if we want a more secure computing environment.

<Next page - Vista Upgrades, DRM, and bogus comparisons>

Pages: 1 2 3

George Ou is Technical Director of ZDNet. See his full profile and disclosure of his industry affiliations.

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Do they also activate, reactivate, limit the
functionality, run WGA, install Microsoft
spyware/rootkits to monitor your activities,
update the MSWMP DRM regularly, and freeze
up when y... (Read the rest)
Posted by: Ole Man Posted on: 10/28/07 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
All about the hardware  tooner440 | 09/28/07
OK More Facts : Vista Gets In The Way  TheBoyBailey | 09/28/07
You can do that, but UAC has done its job  georgeou | 09/28/07
You misread it slightly  TheBoyBailey | 09/28/07
I didn't misread it  georgeou | 09/28/07
Not everyone is George Ou  nizuse | 09/28/07
WoW, thats a lot of unnecessary work  Badgered | 09/28/07
WoW .. I find it easier to work that way  TheBoyBailey | 09/28/07
Interesting  Badgered | 09/28/07
NO you don't have to pay  johnson12 | 10/04/07
I concur.  Ben_E | 09/30/07
What you fail to mention...  ivanotter | 09/28/07
..Wrong.. Administrator Prompts are Additional  TheBoyBailey | 09/28/07
Yes, and...  thx-1138_@... | 09/28/07
How?  CobraA1 | 09/28/07
Level 73 Elite  Chiatzu | 10/04/07
Thats the functional behavior, now take a look at when it stops  bonchi74@... | 10/05/07
I imagine they would be a lot worse  Bozzer | 09/28/07
Your figures aren't arbitrary, they're nonsense  georgeou | 09/28/07
It made me wonder  tombalablomba | 09/28/07
I'm not surprised.  notsofast | 09/28/07
Market Share  Bozzer | 09/28/07
Your silence is deafening  Bozzer | 09/29/07
It?s not my fault if you weren?t clear in your statement  georgeou | 09/29/07
What are you on about?  Bozzer | 09/30/07
I'll say it one last time, I already answered it  georgeou | 09/30/07
IE 7 and MBSA  sordito | 09/28/07
Wow, none of these are my complaint about Vista  nucrash | 09/28/07
I've been following the Vista launch with interest  tombalablomba | 09/28/07
Interesting analysis  nizuse | 09/28/07
and you miussed what he said  ivanotter | 09/28/07
absolutely!!  bonchi74@... | 10/05/07
I have yet to see a Linux...  bjbrock | 09/28/07
Here you go!  bka1959 | 09/28/07
Not really ....  MisterMiester | 09/28/07
wrong i would say///  ivanotter | 09/28/07
Please read again:  MisterMiester | 09/28/07
Then don't try to compare a recommended command line OS requirement  bka1959 | 09/28/07
Sorry ...  MisterMiester | 09/28/07
More Education from the Ubuntu Web Site  bka1959 | 09/28/07
Server install to run well ...  MisterMiester | 09/28/07
You are right I did not read down far enough  bka1959 | 09/28/07
Get over it!  nwoodson@... | 09/28/07
Lets compare according to each distros recommendations  soonerproud | 09/28/07
You may have a...  Necrolin | 10/04/07
The Good The Bad and The Ugly  andycher | 09/28/07
George Ou; Wonderful points, but...  Kromaethius | 09/28/07
That Vista is lackluster is the POINT  comp_indiana | 09/28/07
No, you've proved my point...  Kromaethius | 09/28/07
Only "tard" here would seem to be you  MacCanuck | 09/28/07
Your Comprehension  Kromaethius | 09/29/07
Here we go again...  Ben_E | 10/01/07
I bought it too,  BroGnorik | 09/28/07
Name calling aside - people still like XP  kbaily05@... | 09/28/07
Don's just one voice among many  georgeou | 09/28/07
Amazing that you failed to mention...  jasonp@... | 09/28/07
What neither of you has explained...  John L. Ries | 09/28/07
What were you reading?  georgeou | 09/28/07
OK. On re-reading...  John L. Ries | 09/28/07
George and Vista  Bozzer | 09/29/07
Re: When presented with difficult questions....  cnfrisch | 09/29/07
Well...  zkiwi | 09/29/07
Market share  Bozzer | 09/30/07
I answered your question but you apparently didn't read it  georgeou | 09/30/07
Hey, it's better than Windows ME  kbaily05@... | 09/28/07
No compelling reason for vista  waltmaine | 09/28/07
Agreed! Why upgrade to Vista?  kgrant | 09/28/07
DX10 is Vista only  soonerproud | 09/28/07
Also for waltmaine, above  itpro_z | 10/04/07
Exactamundo!  thx-1138_@... | 10/04/07
Vista is the 'Lexus' of Operating Systems  cnfrisch | 09/28/07
"I know of no one that wanted to return to XP"  nizuse | 09/28/07
PLEASE  Linux User 147560 | 09/28/07
PLEASE  xuniL_z | 09/28/07
Does this include me?  normhaga@... | 10/05/07
9.5!  TechExec2 | 09/28/07
And  LegendsOfBatman | 10/04/07
Hi Bill  ttocsmij | 10/04/07
More like a YUGO . . .  critic-at-arms | 10/05/07
Another UAC alteration, George, ...  DevGuy_z | 09/28/07
Sudo? Isn't it 15 min in Ununtu?  bka1959 | 09/28/07
ops Should have read "Ubuntu" Gota replace that Keyboard.  bka1959 | 09/28/07
Maybe, I never timed it 5 minutes good for me.  DevGuy_z | 09/28/07
Yes you are correct ...  MisterMiester | 09/28/07
Re: Hey, you turned it off so it's your fault.  bka1959 | 09/28/07
More like  soonerproud | 09/28/07
Correct (NT)  soonerproud | 09/28/07
My biggest problem with the UAC  BroGnorik | 09/28/07
Root cause?  DevGuy_z | 09/28/07
I think they should only require elevation for loading unknown applications  georgeou | 09/28/07
Significance of Vista  Anton Philidor | 09/28/07
Very good points  georgeou | 09/28/07
Which is why ...  fredsmith6 | 09/29/07
Buying a Vista Certified PC is a Bargain!  cnfrisch | 09/29/07
That's pretty much the no-brainer  georgeou | 09/29/07
Irrelevance of Vista  Richard Flude | 10/01/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  jeffeyg@... | 09/28/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  drjekyll | 09/28/07
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR - NOT!  Jeremy W | 09/28/07
Long Live 'XP'  D. T. Schmitz | 09/28/07
"...that gives me a little crediance ".  macgregor@... | 09/28/07
Try Vista before you criticise  soonerproud | 09/28/07
Mac OSx is superior to Windows Vista  rigo12 | 10/01/07
A couple of points.  itpro_z | 10/01/07
Say what?  itpro_z | 10/01/07
Maybe I never timed it.  DevGuy_z | 09/28/07
Oops, wrong button,  DevGuy_z | 09/28/07
Vista is just not business ready  TripleII | 09/28/07
And before someone says, "YEAH, RIGHT"  TripleII | 09/28/07
Confidence  Harry Bardal | 09/28/07
Public RCA is required  TripleII | 09/28/07
Have you seen this.  xuniL_z | 09/28/07
Understanding Novell's Numbers, Understanding the World  DannyO_0x98 | 09/28/07
So you are saying that Novell  xuniL_z | 09/29/07
That's why I backed off Linux as OEMed  TripleII | 09/29/07
No mention of the #3 maker in the world?  xuniL_z | 10/03/07
Minor point  itpro_z | 10/03/07
Are you WRONG  Michael L Hereid Sr | 10/04/07
There's more than one way to skin a cat  Ole Man | 10/05/07
Boot time question  ohiomike | 09/28/07
I've noticed that too.  Sxooter_z | 09/28/07
Only if you load the crapware  georgeou | 09/28/07
I think Vista is OK...  neoanderthal | 09/28/07
Linux hardware requirements... Check your facts.  Mitch 74 | 09/28/07
Welcome to George's world!  nizuse | 09/28/07
exactly  bonchi74@... | 10/05/07
Linux is at least half of the resources needed of Vista ...  MisterMiester | 09/28/07
Well, it's hard to dispute when you look at a fully featured  georgeou | 09/28/07
Again , George?  MisterMiester | 10/02/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  glocks out | 09/28/07
what has antitrust have to do with making vendors and hardware  SO.CAL Guy | 10/01/07
VISTA UAC is nusiance  rgeiken@... | 09/28/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  mlandon | 09/28/07
Too hard to change Start Menu w UAC  pmansbach@... | 09/28/07
Clean miss, George  critic-at-arms | 09/28/07
Everyone I know who got a Vista PC reverted  glocks out | 09/28/07
Everyone I know  itpro_z | 10/01/07
Wow . . .  critic-at-arms | 10/04/07
As compared to...  itpro_z | 10/04/07
7% is "quite a feat"? NOT HARDLY!  critic-at-arms | 10/05/07
OK, let's try this again with smaller words...  itpro_z | 10/05/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  hansonjb | 09/28/07
Let's debunk some of those things  Leria | 09/28/07
microsoft is out of touch and vista does have problems  hansonjb | 09/29/07
Speaking of out of touch...  itpro_z | 10/03/07
I just don't like FUD  Ole Man | 10/03/07
Ole Man, the absolute King of FUD!  itpro_z | 10/04/07
i stand by what i said  hansonjb | 10/04/07
Of course the numbers are small  Ole Man | 10/05/07
No dispute, except...  itpro_z | 10/04/07
Then why...  normhaga@... | 10/05/07
Perhaps because...  itpro_z | 10/05/07
Facts on Vista  myesb | 09/28/07
Cite an embedded model that is slow  georgeou | 09/28/07
Majority of corporate IT people never want change.  georgeou | 09/28/07
Something new  myesb | 09/29/07
10!  TechExec2 | 09/29/07
Never underestimate...  itpro_z | 10/04/07
Oh so true, George we....  fredfarkwater@... | 10/02/07
re: 5  CobraA1 | 09/28/07
XP not the point  myesb | 09/29/07
re: XP not the point  CobraA1 | 09/29/07
Corporate IT  itpro_z | 10/04/07
Linux runs on old hardware  dennisgornall@... | 09/28/07
Only certain newer hardware ...  MisterMiester | 09/28/07
Linux Runs on new hardware too  soonerproud | 09/28/07
Apologist shinola  deMonstris | 09/28/07
I'm not sure what you were reading  georgeou | 09/28/07
More apologies  Jeremy W | 09/29/07
Are you sure?  zkiwi | 09/29/07
More Vista Drivers Offered Everyday  cnfrisch | 09/29/07
So?  zkiwi | 09/29/07
The rewrite started in 2005 and there was more than a year of beta  georgeou | 09/29/07
Well...  zkiwi | 09/29/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  gmallen@... | 09/28/07
I agree  Krazyken39 | 09/28/07
UAC only comes up when... NOT!  azisman | 09/28/07
All users is a system wide setting  georgeou | 09/28/07
I see your point...  Ben_E | 10/04/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  efraimkarsh@... | 09/28/07
Nope, you didn't  TripleII | 09/28/07
What DRM problems? And what happens when you try to play a DVD in Ubuntu?  georgeou | 09/28/07
PClinuxOS  TripleII | 09/28/07
Yes, includes DVD playback  TripleII | 09/28/07
No DVDs in Linux since that's "DRM infected"?  georgeou | 09/28/07
You misread  TripleII | 09/28/07
I asked what kind of hacks do you have to do to make DVDs work  georgeou | 09/28/07
Install  Linux User 147560 | 09/28/07
Install the OS, that's it.  TripleII | 09/28/07
In Ubuntu  soonerproud | 09/28/07
Now that I have cleared that up, how bout .ogg, .doc, ...  TripleII | 09/28/07
No George, here is where you are really wrong  Linux User 147560 | 09/28/07
Correction, no MP3 encoding out of the box  TripleII | 09/28/07
It works  tombalablomba | 10/01/07
By George, you've got it!  kd5auq | 09/28/07
Which application isn't working for you?  georgeou | 09/28/07
Taming the UAC  Jim Johnson | 09/28/07
FYI: Night of the Living Vista  D. T. Schmitz | 09/28/07
What do you expect to hear from SVJ?  georgeou | 09/28/07
I read and sometimes I am informed or entertained or both!  D. T. Schmitz | 09/28/07
Funny how people always say the last MS OS was the best  georgeou | 09/28/07
Win2K  Linux User 147560 | 09/28/07
Funny?  D. T. Schmitz | 09/28/07
What a hoot!  Jeremy W | 09/29/07
Nice Mediating Tone, George  YinToYourYang-22527499 | 09/28/07
Vista is very bad...  bjbrock | 09/28/07
Not hysteria, just the facts.  voconnor@... | 09/28/07
Changing your story??  GW Mahoney | 09/28/07
George, how can you persuade MS haters not to hate MS?  pa2004 | 09/28/07
NT is a bad fit for consumerland  cquirke | 09/28/07
You're about 6 years too late with that argument  georgeou | 09/28/07
UAC I like, DRM I don't.  CobraA1 | 09/28/07
Vista absolutely the finest O/S available.  cnfrisch | 09/28/07
Is that you Mike Cox?  D. T. Schmitz | 09/28/07
10!  TechExec2 | 09/28/07
Even Current Equipment does not have Vista Drivers  murraygordon@... | 09/28/07
More honesty and less hype about Vista, please!  TechExec2 | 09/28/07
Thanks for the laugh...  Ben_E | 10/03/07
Lots of red herrings here  TechExec2 | 10/03/07
So Microsoft is dead...  itpro_z | 10/03/07
Here we go again...  Ben_E | 10/04/07
You don't know how to quit when you're behind wink  TechExec2 | 10/04/07
Nope - I only quit when I'm wrong! wink  Ben_E | 10/04/07
Some hysteria (just for the laughs)  tombalablomba | 09/29/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  atari_z | 09/29/07
Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols' article "Night of the Living Vista"...  TechExec2 | 09/29/07
Re: Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols' article  cnfrisch | 09/29/07
It IS Mike Cox!  D. T. Schmitz | 09/29/07
Why is everybody getting so hysterical?...  D. T. Schmitz | 09/29/07
Stop insulting OS/2 Warp  John L. Ries | 09/29/07
You're right. My bad. silly  TechExec2 | 10/01/07
George Ou would do his readers a favor  j.m.galvin | 09/29/07
Vista must be worse than I thought  CFKane | 09/29/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  cavlosnap@... | 09/29/07
If it is breaking regularly...  Ben_E | 10/03/07
That's what he said  Ole Man | 10/03/07
Who needs FACTS save ONE fact:  XweAponX | 09/29/07
Take Solace: Mike Cox Speaks (AKA Alan Greenspan)  D. T. Schmitz | 09/29/07
George about your first point....?  James Quinn | 09/29/07
Good Point!  Kromaethius | 09/29/07
I've already answered that on the second page  georgeou | 09/29/07
Well yes and no...  James Quinn | 09/30/07
It is time to LEAVE MICROSOFT ALONE!  TechExec2 | 09/29/07
Sure Thing, Chris Crocker  nucrash | 09/29/07
Gotcha! laugh  TechExec2 | 09/30/07
Chris Crocker was serious?  nucrash | 10/01/07
give me something better than xp  bicard | 09/29/07
Fair to write for 3 year old devices  laman | 09/29/07
Did you read the WHOLE statement?  georgeou | 09/30/07
I agree with you.  Ben_E | 10/01/07
Was it Microsoft???s fault that the drivers didn???t work well at first?  pavka@... | 09/30/07
You CAN make that argument, but you didn't.  Bob.Kerns | 09/30/07
Vista was forced upon us!  jgessing1@... | 09/30/07
No! They want to make money?!?!  georgeou | 09/30/07
Stockholders ARE angry with Microsoft  TechExec2 | 10/01/07
If so...  John L. Ries | 10/01/07
Like most boards of directors...  TechExec2 | 10/02/07
One measure of Vista "Success" from Amazon.com  j.m.galvin | 09/30/07
And we all know that Amazon is the #1 distributor of Windows right?  georgeou | 09/30/07
What does that have to do with the price of fish?  TripleII | 09/30/07
Would you judge popularity of types of fish from Amazaon sales?  Bob.Kerns | 09/30/07
Yes, it is lacking.  TripleII | 10/01/07
There's no need to look for evidence  CFKane | 10/01/07
I don't really know that anyone  xuniL_z | 10/02/07
Stats  tombalablomba | 10/01/07
Most popular operating systems on Amazon  TechExec2 | 10/01/07
The Ubuntu option is an eye opener.  TripleII | 10/01/07
On buying an Ubuntu CD from Amazon...  TechExec2 | 10/01/07
re: Microsoft is DEAD  xuniL_z | 10/02/07
That's right. Microsoft is DEAD.  TechExec2 | 10/02/07
So in other words  xuniL_z | 10/02/07
xuniL_z: My reply to you was censored  TechExec2 | 10/03/07
censored  Ole Man | 10/03/07
Be careful what you wish for  tonymcs@... | 09/30/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  zlitocook@... | 09/30/07
Good article, George  Bob.Kerns | 09/30/07
Default user is Admin in Windows Vista  georgeou | 09/30/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  stugazzo | 09/30/07
As I said in my blog, I do not recommend upgrading  georgeou | 09/30/07
That'd depend on if...  zkiwi | 10/01/07
Agreed, but you misunderstood my question slightly  stugazzo | 10/01/07
The DRM for video playback doesn't help or harm you  georgeou | 09/30/07
In Vista?  tombalablomba | 10/01/07
What's the difference?  Ole Man | 10/02/07
It's in Vista, Office, and Windows Server 2008  georgeou | 10/04/07
Okay there's one possible technical benefit  stugazzo | 10/01/07
A lot more security and other features  georgeou | 10/04/07
Pros and cons  bruce.dimon@... | 10/16/07
I have a question with regard to UAC  alaniane@... | 10/01/07
OK, George, here is my take  itpro_z | 10/02/07
Agreed.  Ben_E | 10/03/07
In reality..  jhurst747 | 10/02/07
Vista has been 100% trouble free  cnfrisch | 10/03/07
What I love most about Windows is the wonderful EULA  Ole Man | 10/04/07
Pretty much standard.  itpro_z | 10/04/07
I don't pay people to cheat me  Ole Man | 10/05/07
The worst?  itpro_z | 10/05/07
Anyone who knows me  Ole Man | 10/05/07
OK  itpro_z | 10/05/07
Nope, I'm not a killer  Ole Man | 10/05/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  p71@... | 10/04/07
Thank you, George  LegendsOfBatman | 10/04/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  vger_z | 10/04/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  skris88@... | 10/04/07
Not sure, but...  itpro_z | 10/04/07
RE: More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!  goldenpirate@... | 10/04/07
OS/application heirarchy  beep.wot | 10/04/07
It's called the Microsoft Two Step  Ole Man | 10/05/07
Why the applications should be considered bad.  Ben_E | 10/05/07
HYSTERIA??? WHAT HYSTERIA???  bonchi74@... | 10/05/07
The more I read about Vista the more I like MacOS  rauko@... | 10/05/07
The more I use Vista, the more...  itpro_z | 10/05/07
Where is the statistics listed?  Ole Man | 10/05/07
Thanks for clearing out Vista facts from Vista hate.  Solid Jedi Knight | 10/06/07
Bully for you!  Ole Man | 10/06/07
What?  itpro_z | 10/07/07
Message has been deleted.  james.faction | 10/06/07
I love that one...  Ben_E | 10/07/07
Vista Is Nothing Compared to XP ? Move to Mac OS X and Ubuntu Linux  n0neXn0ne | 10/07/07
Interesting.  itpro_z | 10/07/07
any links? ... to back that up? (nt)  n0neXn0ne | 10/07/07
Back up what?  itpro_z | 10/07/07
we take Vista, remove it and rebuild XP  midgeuk | 10/22/07
Out of touch  midgeuk | 10/22/07
Back in touch  Ole Man | 10/28/07

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