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November 6th, 2007

A rational debate on Comcast traffic management

Posted by George Ou @ 10:08 am

Categories: Infrastructure, Net Neutrality, Networking, News

Tags: Cable Broadband, BitTorrent, Network, Comcast Corp., Cable, Network Technology, Networking, Telecommunications, Personal Technology, George Ou

In Focus » See more posts on: Net Neutrality

Updated 8:00 PM
The discussion on Comcast actively resetting BitTorrent connections to manage its network for its cable broadband service has gotten hot in recent weeks and there hasn’t been a whole lot of accurate reporting on the subject because of the complexity of the issue. The subject of Net Neutrality has once again surfaced with Comcast’s actions being the latest rallying cry of Internet “discrimination”. This isn’t the first time an ISP was used as an example of Internet discrimination, extremists concocted a story that Cox was blocking Craigslist when the problem was arguably Craigslist own making all along.

Much like the debate on Net Neutrality, I sat on the sidelines for a while to get a handle on the situation. I had mixed feelings on the issue and I didn’t jump in until I saw the debate get out of hand with outright nonsense. Since June of 2006 I’ve written a series of articles on the issue of Net Neutrality culminating in “A rational debate on Net Neutrality” which I can proudly say got a lot of linking from reasonable proponents on both sides of the issue. Now that extremist groups like SaveTheInternet.com is lobbying the FCC to stop Comcast’s network management practices without fully understanding what they are asking for, I’m going to try and start a rational debate on the issue.

I will start by summarizing the Comcast situation and how it all started. Comcast was found to be actively resetting TCP connections on BitTorrent peer-to-peer file trading connections by forging TCP reset packets that appear to be coming from the BitTorrent peers. When most of us hear the term “forged TCP reset packets”, it sounds like Comcast has crossed the line of reasonable network management Comcast is guilty of application discrimination. So when word of this got out, all hell broke loose and the knifes were out for Comcast’s blood.

The Free Press has gone as far as demanding an FCC enjoinment before the merits are even decided and they are demanding fines of $195,000 per infraction which would amount to $2.3 TRILLION dollars if we only counted Comcast customers.

The FCC should act immediately to enjoin Comcast’s secret discrimination and, even before deciding the merits, issue a temporary injunction requiring Comcast to stop degrading any applications. Upon deciding the merits, the Commission should issue a permanent injunction ending Comcast’s discrimination. The Commission should also impose the maximum forfeitures to deter Comcast and other network providers and to ensure society is fully compensated for the harms imposed by Internet discrimination.

I have to admit that when I first heard about the issue, I too thought Comcast crossed the line of reasonable network management in to abusive behavior but after speaking to Richard Bennett who had a hand in creating some of the technology used to build the Internet, I’m not so certain that my initial assessment was correct.

<Next page - Web hogs plus shared cable equals network meltdown>

Pages: 1 2 3

George Ou is Technical Director of ZDNet. See his full profile and disclosure of his industry affiliations.

  • Talkback
  • Most Recent of 220 Talkback(s)
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management
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Posted by: ujhrdngjk Posted on: 08/17/09 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
Excellent explananation!  kd5auq | 11/06/07
What! Marketing? Expectations? No, never grin  georgeou | 11/06/07
Page Downloading Issues  psomerset@... | 11/07/07
The legality of Comcast's chosen method is questionable  Letophoro | 11/06/07
Every Comcast customer I've talked to contracts your experience  georgeou | 11/06/07
Don't get bent out of shape.  Letophoro | 11/06/07
Forging packets is done all the time for network management  georgeou | 11/06/07
I know this bunch  nucrash | 11/07/07
List some examples if you don't mind.  Letophoro | 11/07/07
What do you mean NAT doesn't count?  georgeou | 11/07/07
Why NAT doesn't count.  Letophoro | 11/07/07
Actually, NAT can change the origin and destination  georgeou | 11/07/07
NAT does not forge packets. Now cite your examples and stop dissembling.  Letophoro | 11/07/07
RE: NAT does not forge packets.  gdstark13 | 11/09/07
Re: gdstark13  Letophoro | 11/09/07
pretty much  merc2dogs` | 11/15/07
re; Every Comcast customer I've talked to contracts  notsofast | 11/07/07
The legality of the torrent traffic is questionable  Bozzer | 11/07/07
Not relevant.  Letophoro | 11/07/07
Ha. Boy. You have one dimensional thinking.  Cayble | 11/07/07
Don't kid yourself  bmerc | 11/08/07
Say What?  rgetsla | 11/18/07
Bull...  jasonp@... | 11/06/07
A better analogy  nucrash | 11/06/07
Limits...  jasonp@... | 11/06/07
No network guarantees everyone can go full throttle  georgeou | 11/06/07
How about a little intellectual honesty...  jasonp@... | 11/07/07
If you live in the Southeast or California, you don't have to imagine these  D. W. Bierbaum | 11/07/07
Network Address Translation forges packets too  georgeou | 11/07/07
Why cant we keep up with growth?  otaddy | 11/07/07
That may be...  PghNative | 11/12/07
What can Comcast Guarantee  jimsum71 | 11/07/07
NAT translates, rather than forges.  D. W. Bierbaum | 11/09/07
Lame  PghNative | 11/12/07
Crime?  Bozzer | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  mrOSX | 11/06/07
Not always  nucrash | 11/06/07
Cable Networks...  mrOSX | 11/07/07
Re: Cable Networks  acwhite86@... | 11/07/07
Pipes  cywelchjr | 11/07/07
Kick the illegals off using p2p  Bozzer | 11/07/07
You're an idiot. [NT]  bmerc | 11/08/07
Comcast is not the Cops  PghNative | 11/12/07
Nice article, but still doesn't tell the whole story  NetArch. | 11/06/07
Sorry - munged the url  NetArch. | 11/06/07
What you're asking for requires that Comcast tears everything down and re  georgeou | 11/06/07
A bit testy, aren't we?  NetArch. | 11/07/07
You haven't provided an alternative  georgeou | 11/07/07
OK- Here's an alternative...  djdawson | 11/07/07
Richard Bennett is not a Comcast engineer  georgeou | 11/07/07
My bad  djdawson | 11/08/07
Confused about the facts  richardbennett | 11/07/07
I was only confused about one thing  djdawson | 11/08/07
To Dana  richardbennett | 11/09/07
The main problem is...  Kjell_Andorsen | 11/07/07
AT&T promises up to 1.5 mbps and delivers 0.3 mbps  georgeou | 11/07/07
re: AT&T promises up to 1.5 mbps and delivers 0.3 mbps  notsofast | 11/07/07
Phone networks don't have to deal with BitTorrent  georgeou | 11/08/07
"Up to" is no protection  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
DSL vs Cable  notsofast | 11/07/07
Say what?  rgetsla | 11/18/07
Begs the question....  civikminded | 11/06/07
Cable was never built as a 2-way many-to-many communication network  georgeou | 11/06/07
Fibre Costs  civikminded | 11/07/07
You have to buy new equipment  georgeou | 11/07/07
Fibre costs, and the customer gets screwed  bfilipiak@... | 11/07/07
Hmm  civikminded | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  carot@... | 11/06/07
It's not as bad as AT&T's "dedicated" 0.3 mbps DSL service  georgeou | 11/06/07
Ehr  Kjell_Andorsen | 11/07/07
We're not debating whether Comcast is poor or not, is it ILLEGAL?  georgeou | 11/07/07
Legality and ethics  Kjell_Andorsen | 11/07/07
Read the fine print  tonymcs@... | 11/06/07
You should go read the fine print  georgeou | 11/06/07
I'm sorry George, you really don't understand.  tonymcs@... | 11/07/07
Give over.  Bozzer | 11/07/07
Wow you REALLY are an idiot...  bmerc | 11/08/07
No, ISPs advertise PEAK speeds, not capacity  georgeou | 11/08/07
Where did you get your data?  rgetsla | 11/19/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  RKG | 11/06/07
That may or may not be related  georgeou | 11/06/07
But why do we care?  AySz88 | 11/07/07
If they implemented new modems than can dynamically throttle the number of  georgeou | 11/07/07
Cost doesn't excuse Comcast from fixing it  AySz88 | 11/07/07
Again, is not a pretty solution but who gets to define it as a "problem"  georgeou | 11/07/07
Only those in the know...  AySz88 | 11/08/07
Its all a matter of contract  s_souche | 11/07/07
Every ISP has fine print provisions  georgeou | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  marbo100 | 11/07/07
Transparency is always a good thing  georgeou | 11/07/07
George, you don't offer the best solution  bill@... | 11/07/07
Wonderful thought, that...  acwhite86@... | 11/07/07
It's not a question of copper or fiber, it's a question of large broadcast  georgeou | 11/07/07
Comcast is blocking Google in my case  colson@... | 11/07/07
Your not alone  shoktai@... | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  conchchowder | 11/07/07
All this discussion...  stevets32 | 11/07/07
People need to consider your thoughts  georgeou | 11/07/07
Rational debate? Good luck with that...  D. W. Bierbaum | 11/07/07
BitTorrent is often the cause of high ping times  georgeou | 11/07/07
Ahem... Miscommunication. Let me clarify.  D. W. Bierbaum | 11/09/07
Thank you...  craig-wilson@... | 11/07/07
If I was Comcast, I'd block Skype & Vonage VOIP calls  WiredGuy | 11/07/07
They've tested that in the past  NetArch. | 11/07/07
What Comcast is doing benefits VoIP and Gaming  georgeou | 11/07/07
I'm not a lawyer, but are you sure about that?  WiredGuy | 11/07/07
You can't make that comparison at all  georgeou | 11/08/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  jimmlegs | 11/07/07
Bad tech support  shoktai@... | 11/07/07
What Comcast does is benneficial to Skype, VoIP, and gaming  georgeou | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  cj100570@... | 11/07/07
Sure  cywelchjr | 11/07/07
Then that is what they should do  dragosani | 11/07/07
I find it ironic that you and Free Press are asking for draconian solutions  georgeou | 11/07/07
I swing and a miss  dragosani | 11/07/07
Let me spell it out  dragosani | 11/07/07
So spam, DoS attacks, abusive traffic should be treated equally?  georgeou | 11/07/07
I don't disagree  dragosani | 11/07/07
Oh but you're asking for minority mob rule  georgeou | 11/08/07
Who is the mob?  dragosani | 11/08/07
Oh, come on!  NetArch. | 11/07/07
People who call others idiots should at least learn how to spell  georgeou | 11/07/07
People who whine about spelling should learn the difference...  bmerc | 11/08/07
This is the problem...  jdriddle | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  leeepson7800 | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  bharris0@... | 11/07/07
And 100 lane freeways would be nice too  georgeou | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  ratsaurus@... | 11/07/07
Comcast Service  Lfraz | 11/07/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  hiraghm@... | 11/07/07
Have you ever read your contract and the TOS?  georgeou | 11/07/07
Comcast's Advertising Is The Issue...  g-man_863 | 11/07/07
It's not as bad as some DSL providers  georgeou | 11/07/07
...the most irrational rational debate ever!  wmlundine | 11/07/07
LOL! I'll call your marxism, and raise you one...  D. W. Bierbaum | 11/09/07
NAT...  wmlundine | 11/16/07
What's so terrible about charging by usage?  heliomphalodon | 11/07/07
So do you want a metered Internet where you pay 10 cents per megabyte trans  georgeou | 11/07/07
Flat rate is fine...  heliomphalodon | 11/07/07
BitTorrent users would rather be throttled, not charged hundreds of dollars  georgeou | 11/08/07
Just let us know about the throttling beforehand.  D. W. Bierbaum | 11/09/07
Your theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense  georgeou | 11/10/07
I call shenannigans on your straw man argument  Knorthern Knight | 12/04/07
I think some of your technology...  bjbrock | 11/07/07
I don't think you understood the issues  georgeou | 11/07/07
The shared medium is not having...  bjbrock | 11/07/07
Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about  georgeou | 11/07/07
I do to. Check out the ranging ID.  bjbrock | 11/07/07
Further reading  bjbrock | 11/07/07
RE:Further reading  vividvew | 11/07/07
You obviously didn't read...  bjbrock | 11/07/07
That's right  richardbennett | 11/08/07
Thanks for the clarification - and a question  NetArch. | 11/08/07
bjbrock is confused  richardbennett | 11/08/07
Collisions occurr when everyone...  bjbrock | 11/07/07
re:Collisions occurr when everyone...  vividvew | 11/07/07
Show your ignorance.  bjbrock | 11/07/07
Actually, he made a lot of sense. You don't  georgeou | 11/08/07
I'll send you the link from Netgear...  bjbrock | 11/08/07
Sessions on router  bjbrock | 11/08/07
Routers don't normally host TCP sessions, they route traffic, not terminate  georgeou | 11/08/07
Missed issues  twriter | 11/07/07
Again, this is not Comcast's explanation  georgeou | 11/07/07
Nice example of argumentum ad verecundiam  bmerc | 11/08/07
Thanks for the compliment  richardbennett | 11/09/07
Control the data, control how people (don't) think.  Mr. Roboto | 11/07/07
Maybe Comcast Should Make TV Traffic Even More Of A Priority  godhner | 11/07/07
That's got nothing to do with this  georgeou | 11/07/07
Comcast's spectrum allocation policies are involved  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
If there are too many cars they don't limit cars, they enlarge the highway.  DrFred | 11/07/07
Everyone could use more transparency  georgeou | 11/07/07
Govt does poor job of increasing road capacity  otaddy | 11/07/07
Enlarge the highway? Hardly!  heliomphalodon | 11/07/07
Nice straw man argument there, dude!  bmerc | 11/08/07
Please interpret it for me...  heliomphalodon | 11/08/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  erniem1970@... | 11/07/07
George the following quote is completely WRONG!  notsofast | 11/07/07
Problem with EvDO too  otaddy | 11/07/07
good article!!  vividvew | 11/07/07
Thanks, one note though  georgeou | 11/08/07
Rational. Has George gone gunny sack?  D. T. Schmitz | 11/07/07
Another reason not to use BitTorrent  hexstar@... | 11/07/07
Comcast should tell its customers the truth  jruhnke@... | 11/08/07
If you look at the "web hog" video, it's very embarrassing  georgeou | 11/08/07
Being on Both Sides of the Fence  nucrash | 11/08/07
Rational?  cameron_hopkin@... | 11/08/07
Bennett may know a thing or two about networks...  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
Vint Cerf won't debate Net Neutrality and he has not been up front  georgeou | 11/08/07
QoS does not rely on source IP  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
NAT does not create packets out of thin air  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
You sure about that? See this.  georgeou | 11/08/07
There is a difference between modifying and creating packets  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
Again, they are TRANSLATING rather than altering.  D. W. Bierbaum | 11/09/07
No it isn't  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
So are you suggesting a 2 trillion dollar fine and an immediate enjoinment?  georgeou | 11/08/07
If Seagate can be forced to refund, so can Comcast  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
Seagate is refunding $5 if you fill out a long form  georgeou | 11/09/07
Don't put words in my mouth  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
Sorry about breaking threading  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
You'd probably be screaming louder if BT was actually blocked  georgeou | 11/08/07
I don't use BitTorrent.  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
There are multiple forms of Network Neutrality  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
Does spam and DDoS traffic deserve equal protection?  georgeou | 11/08/07
Comcast throttles BT no matter how much bandwidth you use  fazalmajid | 11/08/07
A BT Seeder is a Server  richardbennett | 11/09/07
A seeder is a file server by definition  georgeou | 11/09/07
Ruin what for everyone?  D. W. Bierbaum | 11/09/07
Again, read your contract with Comcast  georgeou | 11/10/07
Transparency is what's missing  mlevison | 11/09/07
To use rationally, think of the rational user  tBuggR | 11/09/07
To Richard  djdawson | 11/09/07
In a way, it does...  g-man_863 | 11/10/07
Restraint of trade, too...  g-man_863 | 11/10/07
I don't care much for hearsay  georgeou | 11/10/07
good point  vividvew | 11/10/07
Should we regulate Comcast like other public utilities?  jaybyrd | 11/20/07
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  Lightning Joe | 01/23/08
2 cable network misconceptions  rlshorter | 01/28/08
oops -correcting one of my own misconceptions  rlshorter | 01/28/08
RE: A rational debate on Comcast traffic management  ujhrdngjk | 08/17/09

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