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February 16th, 2007

Does ODF lack sufficient detail?

Posted by John Carroll @ 8:21 am

Categories: General, ODF, Office, Office 2007, Open Source, PC Forum, Software Infrastructure

Tags:

I missed this blog post by Mary Jo Foley on the debates surrounding ratification of OOXML by ISO. Unlike printed newspapers, however, which get thrown away shortly after the day for which they were printed has passed, online articles stick around forever. Heck, every article I've ever written for ZDNet can still be found on this site.

Anyway, I've read many articles elsewhere that chastised Microsoft for submitting so long an OOXML specification to ISO. The insinuation, of course, is that they've piled a bunch of unnecessary extras into the specification so as to confuse people and thus hinder interoperability. That post by Ms. Foley, however, pointed me towards some comments by Miguel de Icaza, father of the Mono project and Novell employee, where he made some interesting points on the subject (well, besides the ones Foley included in her blog).

A common objection to OOXML is that the specification is "too big", that 6,000 pages is a bit too much for a specification and that this would prevent third parties from implementing support for the standard.

Considering that for years we, the open source community, have been trying to extract as much information about protocols and file formats from Microsoft, this is actually a good thing.

For example, many years ago, when I was working on Gnumeric, one of the issues that we ran into was that the actual descriptions for functions and formulas in Excel was not entirely accurate from the public books you could buy.

OOXML devotes 324 pages of the standard to document the formulas and functions.

In other words, Microsoft goes into very precise detail in their specification in ways open source programmers have been wanting them to do for a very long time. In contrast, Mr. de Icaza had this to say about the much shorter section in the ODF specification that covers spreadsheet functions and formulas:

Depending on how you count, ODF has 4 to 10 pages devoted to it. There is no way you could build a spreadsheet software based on this specification.

To build a spreadsheet program based on ODF you would have to resort to an existing implementation source code (OpenOffice.org, Gnumeric) or you would have to resort to Microsoft's public documentation or ironically to the OOXML specification.

Miguel de Icaza himself highlighted that text in bold.

This is a point I've made before in other blog posts. A specification does not guarantee consistency in implementation. The more rigorous the specification, the more likely such consistency is to occur (though again, there is no guarantee…like I've said before, try releasing your "standards-compliant" web page without testing it in multiple browsers). As things stand, however, ODF doesn't appear to be rigorous enough to enable the much vaunted cross-platform and cross-implementation replaceability its advocates claim for it. This is sure to lead to individual implementations "filling in the gap," leading to a competition among implementations.  If history is any guide, this often leads to the slow growth in market share of one implementation which in the end becomes the "de facto" standard, albeit one that includes standardized bits alongside the non-standard parts.

Of course, under such a scenario, that new leader might not be Microsoft. To many (IBM included), that is all that matters. Hence, preventing the standardization of OOXML is something to be encouraged.

It's one thing to say that a 6,000 page document format specification includes all the recipes from Grandma Jones extensive collection of cookbooks, a decades worth of advertisements from the pages of Time Magazine, and the complete text of Tolstoy's "War and Peace." It's another thing for the specification to be 6,000 pages and actually have real data essential to interoperability.

Most objections have been of the "omigod, this is too long" variety, not "omigod, there's nothing in here."

John CarrollJohn Carroll has delivered his opinion on ZDNet since the last millennium. Since May 2008, he is no longer a Microsoft employee. He is currently working at a unified messaging-related startup. See his full profile and disclosure of his industry affiliations.

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  • Talkback
  • Most Recent of 85 Talkback(s)
I wonder
...how many pages current web standards would require if they were all printed out in one book.

Yes, if only people would resign themselves to the basics when using office formats. If only p... (Read the rest)
Posted by: John Carroll Posted on: 02/19/07 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
The longer and more complex the specification...  John L. Ries | 02/16/07
A long, hard slog.  Anton Philidor | 02/16/07
If MS assumes...  John L. Ries | 02/16/07
Conspiracy?  Anton Philidor | 02/16/07
Does Good=MS?  John L. Ries | 02/16/07
Sometimes  Anton Philidor | 02/16/07
ODF was NOT created by IBM  zaine_ridling | 02/17/07
Underlying assumptions  John L. Ries | 02/17/07
A fair point  bportlock | 02/16/07
Acknowledging competing interests.  Anton Philidor | 02/16/07
Don't confuse the format with the program  zaine_ridling | 02/17/07
That's the issue  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
Your facts are non-factual.  dave.leigh@... | 02/17/07
Still might be less work...  John L. Ries | 02/16/07
Less work?  Anton Philidor | 02/16/07
Think you've got it backwards  zaine_ridling | 02/17/07
MS claims that ODF is deficient  John L. Ries | 02/17/07
Message to IBM.  Anton Philidor | 02/16/07
Re: the longer  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/16/07
Charter  Yagotta B. Kidding | 02/16/07
...not surprised...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/16/07
...and...  John L. Ries | 02/16/07
Burn down the house  Yagotta B. Kidding | 02/16/07
Sorry, John, you can't re-define "standard"  dave.leigh@... | 02/16/07
They do get it  deaf_e_kate | 02/17/07
Not exactly  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
Oh, Look! A Red Herring!  dave.leigh@... | 02/17/07
I eat red herrings for breakfast  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
You serve it up a lot, too.  dave.leigh@... | 02/17/07
Pot calling kettle black, Mr. Leigh  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
You're paddling furiously and going nowhere.  dave.leigh@... | 02/17/07
if Microsoft agreed to support ODF natively  deaf_e_kate | 02/18/07
Not so fast, John  zaine_ridling | 02/17/07
An intelligent statement  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
Gas vs Diesel  mighetto | 02/16/07
Sort of...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/16/07
John, you want ODF to go away and for Microsoft to "win"?  zaine_ridling | 02/17/07
Okay, I'll recant that  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
Re: oops, slight change  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
Six Thousand Pages.  dave.leigh@... | 02/17/07
Wow, thanks John  zaine_ridling | 02/17/07
Consistency  dave.leigh@... | 02/17/07
ODF lacks plenty, but hey, it isn't MS  A.Typical Zork | 02/16/07
I think...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/16/07
JOHN MS use that tactic since  Quebec-french | 02/16/07
Yes  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/16/07
More misrepresentation  Richard Flude | 02/17/07
Why OXML is fatally flawed  zaine_ridling | 02/17/07
OK John - explain yourself!  bportlock | 02/16/07
Yes, and...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/16/07
Buying the car for the tires  Yagotta B. Kidding | 02/16/07
Re: More  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/16/07
If the extensions are documented...  John L. Ries | 02/16/07
I agree completely  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
MS getting more scrutiny  John L. Ries | 02/17/07
Again, I agree  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
Whose investment?  Yagotta B. Kidding | 02/17/07
Well  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
A Decade of Barnacles.  dave.leigh@... | 02/18/07
Standarisation  bportlock | 02/17/07
Excellent points and very well said  zzz1234567890 | 02/16/07
i applaud MS' efforts  Voodoo187 | 02/16/07
clarification  Voodoo187 | 02/16/07
Specifics  Yagotta B. Kidding | 02/16/07
yeah  Voodoo187 | 02/16/07
A request  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/16/07
read it  Voodoo187 | 02/16/07
Re: read it  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
in closing  Voodoo187 | 02/16/07
Sort of  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
last one, i promise  Voodoo187 | 02/16/07
More misrepresentation  Richard Flude | 02/16/07
OXML ? Stupid is as stupid does?  zaine_ridling | 02/16/07
not to mention this article  Voodoo187 | 02/17/07
Good link, Voodoo  deaf_e_kate | 02/17/07
OOXML won't pass ISO  Voodoo187 | 02/17/07
Put yourself in his shoes  Richard Flude | 02/17/07
This part  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
Wow...What a surprise......  linux for me | 02/17/07
So...  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/17/07
Looks like YOU should read it.  dave.leigh@... | 02/17/07
Careful what you say  Richard Flude | 02/17/07
I'm not worried.  linux for me | 02/19/07
This 6000 page bible reminds me of EDI's X12 standards book...  ju1ce | 02/19/07
I wonder  John CarrollZDNet Moderator | 02/19/07

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