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November 6th, 2007

Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think

Posted by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes @ 5:32 am

Categories: Apple, Microsoft

Tags: Apple Macintosh, User Interface, Operating System, Microsoft Windows Vista, Apple Inc., Leopard, Microsoft Windows Vista (Longhorn), Desktops, Operating Systems, Microsoft Windows

In Focus » See more posts on: Vista

When Vista was released the chorus of complaints and criticisms quickly grew from a low hum to a near deafening roar. A little more than a week since Apple released Leopard and that low hum of discontent has already been amplified to the point where it’s starting to hurt my ears.

Within weeks of Microsoft unleashing Vista on the buying public the issues facing those making the switch from XP to Vista were clear and you could sum them up in a few bullet points:

  • UAC too intrusive
  • Too many bugs
  • System slow-downs
  • Too many compatibility casualties
  • Glitchy interface
  • Baked-in vulnerabilities
  • Install buggy and prone to crashing
  • Systems that were rock-solid under the XP now falling over regularly

Now that Leopard has been in the hands of users for a little under ten days and you can draw up a similar list for Apple’s latest OS:

  • Too many bugs
  • System slow-downs
  • Too many compatibility casualties
  • Glitchy interface
  • Baked-in vulnerabilities
  • Install buggy and prone to crashing
  • Systems that were rock-solid under the Tiger now falling over regularly

Dave Winer does a good job of summarizing the problems affecting Leopard:

I’ve given Leopard a chance, but it’s pretty clear, this is not a good operating system release.

I’ve been out of the Mac loop for most of the last decade, just got back in a bit over 2 years ago. I don’t know if early OS releases are generally as crappy as this one, but I wasn’t prepared for where we’re at now. If I had known, I would have waited, instead of upgrading most of my Macs to the new system.

In fact, Winer also goes on to compare Windows to Mac OS X:

Talking with a friend a few days ago, he asked what I thought of Leopard. He had installed the new version, like me, the first day it came out. “I’m not liking it,” I said. He said something that was simple, profound and revealing: “It’s like Windows.” It is. It’s that unpleasant to use. It disappears for long periods of time. Systems that didn’t used to crash now crash regularly. On one system three hard disks were rendered unusable, and I lost a couple of full days restoring them (luckily I had good backups). The user interface is quirky. The new networking interface is a big step backward. The firewall moved and lost features! That’s simply never done, you don’t charge customers to remove features, esp security features. I think Apple doesn’t understand how many people depend seriously on their Macs.

I’m guessing that the root cause for these problems echoes Vista too - a rush to get the OS out of the door. It makes me sad to say it but we as consumers are now having to put up with buying far too many flawed products because companies are rushing to get products out to market and leaving us (the poor saps stuck with the defective product) to road test it properly, I’ll bet that the road to fixes for these problems will be as long and rocky as the one for Vista. Something else that the two operating systems will have in common.

Leopard’s not generating good press for Apple at the moment (actually, when you stop and thing about it for a moment, not much is generating good press for Apple lately) and it might help is affected users were given a timetable of when to expect robust fixes to come down the tubes.

The strange thing is that I’m quite happy with my Mac and Leopard. I’m guessing that this is because I’m still near the bottom of the Mac OS X learning curve and not pushing the OS too hard.

Thoughts?

[Updated: Nov 06, 2007 @ 11.45 pm - Paul Thurrott seems to have become a little emotional over the fact that I said that Vista was rushed out of the door:

"I'm sorry. But that is the most ignorant thing I've read in a long time. (Mostly because I don't read Mac fanatic blogs anymore.) And as noted above, it's demonstrably false. Microsoft repeatedly delayed Vista in order to ensure that it was as good as possible. Repeatedly. And these delays were widely denounced in the press, and of course in the blogosphere. How anyone could claim that Vista was "rushed out the door" after five years of near-constant delays is beyond me. It's absolutely untrue."

Of course, Mr Thurrott is entitled to his own opinion, but that's a pretty ridiculous statement. The fact that a product takes five years to develop doesn't mean that it can't be rushed out of the door at the end of the cycle, in fact, a rush is all the more likely. If not, how does he account for the fact that bugs that were reported to Microsoft during the beta cycle weren't fixed in the final release (and how bugs that were fixed suddenly reappeared in the RTM release). Were these bugs there "by design?" No, there just wasn't time to fix everything. The pressure to get the product out the door outweighed the incentive to get everything right. The fact that Vista took five years to brew was a big part of the problem - yes, the press (and more importantly, investors) were getting tired of the delays and there wasn't any more wriggle room left.

And really, pulling that "Microsoft repeatedly delayed Vista in order to ensure that it was as good as possible" really doesn't cut it with me given the volume of bugs uncovered.

And while we're on the subject of ridiculous comments, here's a twofer for you:

"That there have been lots of complaints about Vista, of course, is also obvious. But then most of the people complaining make a living complaining, so it's kind of hard to draw any conclusions about that, given that Vista is the most compatible and successful release in the history of Windows."

I'm not sure what circles Thurrott revolves in, but in the circles in which I work, most of the people I've come across who are complaining about Vista are people trying to get some work done using it and not being able to because something gets in their way.]

Adrian Kingsley-HughesAdrian is a technology journalist and author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology. He also runs a popular blog called The PC Doctor. See his full profile and disclosure of his industry affiliations

Want to get in touch? Got a tip? Feel free to drop me a note! I ALWAYS respect anonymity. I'm also on Twitter (@the_pc_doc)

Right to Reply: Should any industry representatives wish to comment on any posts on Hardware 2.0, I will be happy to publish their reply verbatim on this blog.

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  • Talkback
  • Most Recent of 225 Talkback(s)
Dear Adrian,
How you can acknowledge Vista was delayed on the one hand, and then contrive a way to maintain that it was rushed by saying essentially that it's possible to rush at the tail end of a delay, is beyond... (Read the rest)
Posted by: croberts Posted on: 12/06/07 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  mrOSX | 11/06/07
Good question  CobraA1 | 11/06/07
It's a borrow from chip design  alaniane@... | 11/06/07
Puts a perspective into the Ubuntu 7.10 Release  BanjoPaterson | 11/06/07
Exactly!  ye | 11/06/07
I seem to remember an article...  itpro_z | 11/06/07
We'll have to see. After all some of what you mention already exists.  ye | 11/06/07
Its a no brainer  morrig | 11/07/07
While that sounds good...  mrOSX | 11/06/07
Re: While that sounds good...  yyuko@... | 11/06/07
Well Linux to it's credit is far more granular than...  mrOSX | 11/06/07
2.6 update  Linux User 147560 | 11/06/07
Yepper Linux is far more granular than either...  mrOSX | 11/06/07
Naw, that only works when your work is so low  No_Ax_to_Grind | 11/06/07
I was so sure you had something meaningful to say...  BanjoPaterson | 11/06/07
Watch out for that bridge up ahead!  OButterball | 11/06/07
Like your comments  jorjitop | 11/06/07
OS Bugs  chromeronin | 11/06/07
except 7.10 killed my iBook  Hobyx | 11/06/07
Incremental improvements work ...  Tony R. | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  daMan25 | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  JT82 | 11/06/07
Vista worked fine from day 1 for me.  saint9121@... | 11/06/07
And Leopard has worked fine from day 1 for  mrOSX | 11/06/07
Totally agree with that  Thralni | 12/01/07
You must not be doing much on your system ...  Tony R. | 11/06/07
much more then solitaire  Northlite | 11/06/07
How about me  itpro_z | 11/07/07
Tiger Stable?  Kaiwai | 11/06/07
What good does that do?  GuidingLight | 11/06/07
It does a lot of good!  Kaiwai | 11/07/07
yet, you'll trust apple's rushed stop-gap solution.  rtk | 11/07/07
What GPU are you using with  xuniL_z | 11/07/07
I am using  JT82 | 11/07/07
Thanks. Did you upgrade to 64 bit...  xuniL_z | 11/08/07
I did a full retail install..  JT82 | 11/08/07
That is great news.  xuniL_z | 11/08/07
Stop reading forums  Mark@... | 11/06/07
Forums are mostly crud  bahamude | 11/06/07
RE: Forums are mostly crud  alaniane@... | 11/06/07
Three words  frgough | 11/06/07
Apple users...  rapson | 11/06/07
Lacking Common Cuortesy  lmenningen | 11/06/07
No need to look it up  bmerc | 11/06/07
Not only rude and obnoxious but totally wrong too  NonZealot | 11/06/07
Well, rude or not...  Media-Ted@... | 11/06/07
Ad Homeneim  frgough | 11/06/07
Habeas Corpus  NonZealot | 11/06/07
I tried...  TucsonGuy | 11/06/07
Pendantic  frgough | 11/06/07
Look it up?  PghNative | 11/06/07
It's actually "pedantic"  wolf_z | 11/07/07
A few more words...  bobcastle@... | 11/06/07
Building a beter mouse trap  Mujibahr | 11/06/07
I disagree  Anon_ymous | 11/06/07
I can say exactly the same for Vista.  ye | 11/06/07
Don't know  Anon_ymous | 11/06/07
So your lack of experience with Vista means the problems reported...  ye | 11/06/07
Experience  Anon_ymous | 11/06/07
Your anecdote does not deny ...  markbn | 11/06/07
Funny you should say that  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
Hey KI  xuniL_z | 11/06/07
You're funny  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
Now, what exactly did Leopard copy from Vista?  Media-Ted@... | 11/06/07
*sigh*  ego.sum.stig@... | 11/06/07
Not quite Piggly-Wiggly Latin...  M.R. Kennedy | 11/07/07
Walmart? You are funny. They are loaded with Apple products silly boy.  xuniL_z | 11/07/07
Well, slap me in the face with a halibut and put me in a G-Wiz in the rain  ego.sum.stig@... | 11/06/07
You can't seriously be linking to a pogue article...  rtk | 11/06/07
Clearly...  ego.sum.stig@... | 11/06/07
Yes, pogue lied to you.  rtk | 11/06/07
Don't buy what you are saying  rolf.ernst@... | 11/06/07
Stop typing...  Anon_ymous | 11/06/07
Stop typing?  xuniL_z | 11/06/07
heheheh  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
Windows to Mac  NoPumpGas | 11/06/07
Well Obviously  xuniL_z | 11/07/07
And despite Apple's best efforts, pcs can run OS X.  rtk | 11/07/07
Mike?  Jkirk3279 | 11/06/07
oh Dear  TheBoyBailey | 11/06/07
You have to take into account something important  xuniL_z | 11/07/07
Ditto... Leopard just as reliable as Tiger but faster...  dsmckown | 11/06/07
I have had similar results with Leopard  Paul4 | 11/07/07
To be quite frank  alaniane@... | 11/07/07
There's no motivation to produce stable software.  GrizzledGeezer | 11/06/07
Well, I guess you don't...  Qbt | 11/06/07
Huh?  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
It's not that simple  alaniane@... | 11/07/07
ZDNet - Credibility Loss  pvhastings | 11/06/07
Apple growing pains...  Mike Cox | 11/06/07
Agreed - Mike  BanjoPaterson | 11/06/07
People are being led to believe..  msalzberg | 11/06/07
You're going to make some enemies with this article  SteveMak | 11/06/07
Actually,  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
re:Actually  ksbi@... | 11/07/07
Problems not much different than previous major releases  mdfischer | 11/06/07
How many per month retrograded?  DannyO_0x98 | 11/06/07
Leopard Problems.  Morey Copeland | 11/06/07
Bad press? No good news? Huh?  Richard Bolig | 11/06/07
agreed  rlescaille | 11/06/07
What? They still allow you to publish?  DrByte | 11/06/07
I like what he has to say....  Trent Black | 11/06/07
Anyone can rehash dribble...  DrByte | 11/06/07
pathetic...  rtk | 11/06/07
Robust as in intelligent...  DrByte | 11/06/07
Newsflash for ya..  rtk | 11/06/07
iPhone... that's why  richard.ashford@... | 11/06/07
iPharse  thegestunkenaraygun | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  alklann | 11/06/07
I Suspect You're Right  lmenningen | 11/06/07
Or worse  Kaiwai | 11/06/07
There are two kinds of users  spotvin | 11/06/07
Just a little fact checking...  jragosta | 11/06/07
Careful With Statistics  lmenningen | 11/06/07
Be even more careful with mathematical relationships!  NonZealot | 11/06/07
Dr. Ragosta is not one to understand facts.  ye | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  aoleon | 11/06/07
You get what you deserve  YinToYourYang-22527499 | 11/06/07
Gee, wherever could they have gotten the idea that Macs Just Work?  NonZealot | 11/06/07
Tiger does just work  YinToYourYang-22527499 | 11/07/07
so you admit, leopard is a public beta that you have to pay for?  rtk | 11/07/07
Ignorance from the non-Mac using community  YinToYourYang-22527499 | 11/07/07
Hardly.  rtk | 11/07/07
Different threshholds for endurance  YinToYourYang-22527499 | 11/08/07
You mean...  rapson | 11/06/07
so your saying just sit and look at your new os don't move files give  SO.CAL Guy | 11/06/07
Good lord  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
you are too funny.  xuniL_z | 11/07/07
Copy your files yes. Move your files no.  YinToYourYang-22527499 | 11/07/07
I would be careful about  alaniane@... | 11/08/07
Not my experience  lotisb | 11/06/07
Absolutely Asserted  bonchi74@... | 11/06/07
crappy  rhon@... | 11/06/07
Geeks, Hobbyists, and Fan Boys cause a of of their own problems  j.m.galvin | 11/06/07
Typo: Should be "cause a of of their own problems" NT  j.m.galvin | 11/06/07
Any new OS has problems  Patrick_m | 11/06/07
Geeks, Hobbyist and Fanboys should know...  MacGeek2121 | 11/06/07
IT IS WINDOWS USERS' FAULT!!  NonZealot | 11/06/07
You're Just Wrong..Sorry  wellsoul2@... | 11/14/07
the true is that Vista and Leopard are so good that linux boys complain  qmlscycrajg | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  leeepson7800 | 11/06/07
I'm sticking it out with Leopard  3dtodd | 11/06/07
Not all bad, not all good  mark@... | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  macpoet81 | 11/06/07
Strange that you're happy with your Mac and Leopard?  labarker | 11/06/07
One glitch for me  Ken_z | 11/06/07
Ask us in a year.  Resuna | 11/06/07
ZDNet Loves to Bash Apple Macintosh computers  dsmckown | 11/06/07
what?  zupobaloop | 11/06/07
Many different experiences  7stringdude | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  rickgerhart@... | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  bahamude | 11/06/07
Vista/Leopard Not Alike  fotografx@... | 11/06/07
How about a Poll?  bahamude | 11/06/07
How about a Poll?  bahamude | 11/06/07
The problem with ZDNet polls  NonZealot | 11/06/07
Hmmmm your statement sounds an awful like  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
HuH?  PghNative | 11/06/07
'buntu  Vadim P. | 11/06/07
Message not just deleted but never existed?  TripleII | 11/06/07
Yes, the above exists, lol.  TripleII | 11/06/07
Same thing happened  Ole Man | 11/06/07
I always get the returns stripped out of my posts  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
just happened with this one as well  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
and again...  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
Sorry, no ideas what happened ...  Adrian Kingsley-HughesZDNet Moderator | 11/06/07
They, probably, suspected that you are disgusted Vily Clay... (NT)  alabamic | 11/06/07
Could be!  Ole Man | 11/07/07
It's no wonder  xuniL_z | 11/08/07
Ha! Ha! Ha!  Ole Man | 11/10/07
Have seen this over last few weeks.  xuniL_z | 11/06/07
Careful  Kid Icarus-21097050858087920245213802267493 | 11/06/07
The new cleaner-upper on ZDNet  Ole Man | 11/12/07
I remember it  NonZealot | 11/06/07
I was and did lose my mind  TripleII | 11/06/07
I did the same thing the other day (only worse)  Ole Man | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  serenitylodge@... | 11/06/07
Paul Thurrot  chrome_slinky@... | 11/06/07
It's true...... all software is the same  Ole Man | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  dbkelley@... | 11/06/07
Leapord has severe bugs Vista just annoying  JABBER_WOLF | 11/06/07
you got that exactly right  zupobaloop | 11/06/07
Difference  JABBER_WOLF | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  wtfk | 11/06/07
Looks like I'll need to hold back those Mac recommendations this time  zmud | 11/06/07
If you were going to do that, then you really shouldn't be in your field.  Mercat | 11/06/07
Great advice for businesses  zmud | 11/06/07
One more thing.  Mercat | 11/06/07
You have customers that want linux boxes?  zmud | 11/06/07
I'm sorry  zmud | 11/06/07
Going to take onto both posts at once here...  Mercat | 11/06/07
Any numbers to back this claim up?  zmud | 11/06/07
Strawman huh?  Mercat | 11/06/07
I cannot see the logic in that  zmud | 11/06/07
Let's try another source  itpro_z | 11/07/07
Or how about the NY Times?  Mercat | 11/06/07
Doesn't sound like many computers to me  zmud | 11/06/07
Sorry, no ideas what happened ...  Adrian Kingsley-HughesZDNet Moderator | 11/06/07
Oooops  Adrian Kingsley-HughesZDNet Moderator | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  erniem1970@... | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  nikostheater | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  intuitivek3@... | 11/06/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  atari8bit@... | 11/06/07
It's Called - Baby Duck Syndrome  jp23cent@... | 11/07/07
The Internet  IT_Critic | 11/07/07
Do some research zmud  Mercat | 11/07/07
Here's some research  rtk | 11/07/07
Not boring - but  spacecase2 | 11/07/07
Sorry spacecase.  rtk | 11/07/07
Missing something there.  Mercat | 11/07/07
interesting.,,  rtk | 11/07/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  metenlar | 11/07/07
Apple limited themselves  alaniane@... | 11/09/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  Paul4 | 11/07/07
continuation  Paul4 | 11/07/07
having to put up with buying?  bmeacham98@... | 11/07/07
Ignorance  christopher-thorpe@... | 11/07/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  mgrubb@... | 11/08/07
Shibby to that!  christopher-thorpe@... | 11/11/07
Leopard, Vista, Ubuntu, which one?  kimsuhome | 11/12/07
RE: Rushing to get things out  will.doak@... | 11/13/07
They are similar but...  John Musbach | 11/13/07
You do know....  rtk | 11/13/07
RE: Leopard and Vista - More alike than you might think  BLACKBIRDRN | 11/22/07
Dear Adrian,  croberts | 12/06/07

What do you think?

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