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September 15th, 2008

What would Windows be without Win32?

Posted by Mary Jo Foley @ 7:48 am

Categories: .Net Framework, App Compatibility, Corporate strategy, Multicore/distributed computing, Windows client, Windows server

Tags: Win32, Microsoft Corp., RedHawk, MinSafe, Microsoft Windows, Operating Systems, Software, Mary Jo Foley

Would Windows still be Windows if Microsoft yanked out the Win32 programming interface and User GDI graphics-device-interface layers and replaced them with .Net managed code?

That’s not a purely hypothetical question; there are a couple of skunkworks projects indside Microsoft investigating that very idea. And if the results of their incubations pan out, the first fruits of their labors could become part of Windows, maybe as soon as Windows 8.

I wrote a bit about these incubation projects — codenamed “RedHawk” and “MinSafe” – back in July. Since that time, I’ve gotten a bit more information on these projects and have summarized my findings in a new article I wrote for Redmond Developer News. (And just to be clear, Microsoft officials are still unwilling to talk to me about any of these incubation projects; I am hearing about them from various, unnamed but knowledgeable sources.)

A quick refresher: RedHawk and MinSafe (two different code names for essentially the same thing) are projects from Microsoft’s Developer Division and Windows unit, respectively. The pair are paving the way for Midori, the distributed operating system project under development by Microsoft Senior VP of Technical Strategy Eric Rudder & Co. The word is that the Midori folks are looking to RedHawk as the best way for Midori to get a commercial back-end compiler and minimal runtime.

According to my sources, MinSafe is being led by Microsoft Technical Fellow Mark Russinovich. RedHawk’s champion is Technical Fellow Patrick Dussud. Both projects are working with Jon DeVaan, head of Microsoft’s Core Operating Systems Division.

I heard from one of my sources recently that it’s not coincidental that MinSafe and MinWin have similar names. MinWin — Microsoft’s project to create a slimmed-down Windows core — is related to MinSafe. If I were a betting woman, I’d guess that MinSafe is one piece of MinWin, and most likely, the piece most likely to be commercialized first.

Microsoft’s goal with RedHawk, MinSafe and MinWin seems to be to find a way to make Windows less bloated and more manageable, while creating as little disruption as possible for its developers and customers. Based on some of the new information on the RedHawk and MinSafe projects, do you think Microsoft can pull this off?

Mary Jo Foley Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 20 years. Don't miss a single post. Subscribe via Email or RSS. You can also follow Mary Jo on Twitter.

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I use Delphi: Hmm, I don't know about that. I can write desktop .Net code using VCL.NET and run rings around C#. Granted, with ASP.Net, Delphi is lacking, but still capable. And in the Win32 world, nothing can beat Delphi.... (Read the rest); Posted by: pwoon@... Posted on: 10/05/08 You are currently: a Guest | Log in | Terms of Use

Tempting thought..... Takalok | 09/15/08

All new apps ... mwagner@... | 09/16/08

is MacOSX 10.4 that much better than MacOSX 10.0? 914four | 09/16/08

Apple users... Information_z | 09/16/08

so true, so true unclefixer@... | 09/16/08

Can you... Information_z | 09/16/08

Please understand... Information_z | 09/17/08

Truly words of wisdom... Kostagh | 09/17/08

But... Information_z | 09/17/08

On a personal note... Information_z | 09/17/08

Productivity and peace of mind... olePigeon | 09/17/08

I think that was a unique situation you encountered... olePigeon | 09/17/08

I think... Information_z | 09/18/08

"Try paying for..." bmerc | 09/18/08

Why pay when you don't have too? Information_z | 09/18/08

A couple of points, though... olePigeon | 09/17/08

Please explain to me why... Information_z | 09/18/08

Depends on Whether MSFT Includes an "Old Windows" Emulator or Not drprodny | 09/16/08

On *Old Windows* Emulation pghammer21@... | 09/16/08

Code re-writing... Information_z | 09/16/08

Exactly, what did they do since XP was released? iRMX | 09/17/08

Business is driven... Information_z | 09/18/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? Leerdam | 09/15/08

Oh Yes they can, if... madrucke@... | 09/15/08

Sometimes you need to start afresh SamCPP | 09/15/08

Starting afresh with .NET? iRMX | 09/15/08

.NET wouldn't have to be hosted on Win32 Tiggster | 09/16/08

.NET for Linux? 914four | 09/16/08

'NET for *NIX? BTDT pghammer21@... | 09/16/08

Never said .NET was the answer SamCPP | 09/22/08

And who created TurboPascal, Delphi & C#? de-void | 09/23/08

Getting ahead of yourself. xuniL_z | 09/16/08

All XPSP2 applications and drivers written to spec run flawlessly on Vista 914four | 09/16/08

Well with OSX SamCPP | 09/22/08

unlikely RobinInTheHood | 09/16/08

RE: OH Yes they can, if TheTru7h | 09/16/08

So much for backwards compatibility! deowll | 09/16/08

What would Windows be without Win32? Michael Kelly | 09/15/08

You said ... mwagner@... | 09/16/08

There are alternatives 914four | 09/16/08

There's a big difference in Apple and Microsoft alaniane@... | 09/16/08

Stupidest idea ever croberts | 09/15/08

WEll.. ZachE84 | 09/15/08

Sorry buddy but thats not true... storm14k | 09/16/08

No he is correct crypt2121 | 09/16/08

You're just as wrong... storm14k | 09/16/08

Are you looking at the right graphs? xuniL_z | 09/16/08

Parked Domains - Apache NotParker | 09/16/08

Wishful thinking TtfnJohn | 09/16/08

@ttfnjohn. Where did that come from? xuniL_z | 09/16/08

And magallanes | 09/16/08

Ummm... mg215199 | 09/16/08

Umm... No. mg215199 | 09/16/08

ASP and ASP.Net... storm14k | 09/16/08

ASP not totally incompatible at all. xuniL_z | 09/16/08

actually it is true zupobaloop | 09/16/08

that's hilarious johnnydoe1894 | 09/16/08

Well, you topped him. xuniL_z | 09/16/08

Java OS and Managed code iRMX | 09/16/08

.NET wasn't a copy of Java Tiggster | 09/16/08

@iRMX xuniL_z | 09/16/08

.NET Performance is not crap Tiggster | 09/16/08

Microsoft doesn't need to worry too much ... mwagner@... | 09/16/08

Agree with you, but a dangerous game MS is playing croberts | 09/16/08

Some very nice UMPCs run XP tablet and Vista. xuniL_z | 09/17/08

****** THIS JUST IN...****** jtb74129 | 09/16/08

replace the OS with DOS 5.0. deowll | 09/16/08

Managed code is a LOT easier to develop LBiege | 09/15/08

Yup... ZachE84 | 09/15/08

It's one thing to prefer managed code Michael Kelly | 09/15/08

Sure there's always a trade-off LBiege | 09/15/08

Managed code and device drivers iRMX | 09/15/08

Is that a bad thing? AzuMao | 09/15/08

Is it a bad thing? iRMX | 09/15/08

Java, not C# LBiege | 09/15/08

Java, and not C# iRMX | 09/15/08

Colleges still teach data structure/algorithms tho LBiege | 09/15/08

Re: Java, not C# notsofast | 09/15/08

The problem I see with tying a virtual runtime alaniane@... | 09/17/08

For what? LBiege | 09/15/08

Been a while mjolnar@... | 09/15/08

And so that... ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

Win 3.1 Nostalgia? iRMX | 09/16/08

That would be fun ! ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

If we relied on what we find here..... xuniL_z | 09/16/08

.NET wasn't meant for device driver dev Tiggster | 09/16/08

Performance is what AzuMao | 09/16/08

.Net is not a scripting language. alaniane@... | 09/17/08

Wow, just wow. AzuMao | 09/15/08

Nowadays? masonwheeler | 09/15/08

C++ AzuMao | 09/16/08

Sad yes, but true - my favorite language is C USTechHead | 09/15/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

C++ is considered inefficient Tiggster | 09/16/08

Agreed AzuMao | 09/16/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/18/08

Why stop at Assembly alaniane@... | 09/26/08

Not quite correct balsover | 09/15/08

re: Not quite correct thomastmc | 09/15/08

.NET has been around for 8 years balsover | 09/16/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

No, I am not exaggerating. balsover | 09/16/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/18/08

Amen storm14k | 09/16/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

Slow down, Johnny LBiege | 09/16/08

I don't take this personally at all. balsover | 09/16/08

C++ cannot be developed as quickly as .NET Tiggster | 09/16/08

One myth I see a lot alaniane@... | 09/26/08

Perhaps, but the APIs need work. CobraA1 | 09/15/08

Since backward compatibility is an issue, HypnoToad | 09/15/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? goingbust | 09/15/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? progon | 09/15/08

Ever tried writing a device driver in .NET? iRMX | 09/15/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? AzuMao | 09/15/08

I beg to differ proudgeek | 09/15/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

I question what YOU are doing... storm14k | 09/16/08

OK. ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

I'd say that also applies... hasta la Vista, bah-bie | 09/16/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

Surely you jest! hasta la Vista, bah-bie | 09/16/08

Me too ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

Sounds different from here hasta la Vista, bah-bie | 09/17/08

Systems programming would halt, as would Windows itself tmccorm | 09/15/08

Why not run every program through a browser? iRMX | 09/15/08

Because... royalstream | 09/15/08

Your link betrays you CobraA1 | 09/15/08

C# is doing well, thank you very much Gruffydd | 09/15/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

Who uses C anymore? strange_attractor | 09/16/08

No... ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

Run[ing] every program through a browser... stephenlposey@... | 09/15/08

Well I certainly hope not. royalstream | 09/15/08

I certainly hope not as well CobraA1 | 09/15/08

You hit the reason why 'cloud computing' won't catch on Lerianis | 09/15/08

I despair for the future LadyGray | 09/16/08

You are looking at this too narrowly Tiggster | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? modification1 | 09/15/08

Even the Java OS has C and Assembler iRMX | 09/15/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? ethyrdude | 09/15/08

It is more a question of how it would be iRMX | 09/15/08

summits Hercul_s | 09/15/08

It would be a corporate thin client OS, that's what! JasonVene | 09/15/08

Corporate Clients iRMX | 09/15/08

Innovative, smaller and efficient jscarey | 09/15/08

Puppy Linux iRMX | 09/15/08

That's a GREAT analogy proudgeek | 09/15/08

I dunno CobraA1 | 09/15/08

dotnet = less bloat? seanferd | 09/15/08

This is a stupid article... Spiritusindomit@... | 09/15/08

I dunno... Spiritusindomit@... | 09/15/08

Answer: A virtualization host happy

cquirke1 | 09/15/08

I have already gone 64 bit only balsover | 09/16/08

Dead in the water mthornton | 09/16/08

Are Microsoft brave enough to risk a move to Linux? Gordon_Fern | 09/16/08

Re ghost_ghost | 09/16/08

Sure! Why not? Grayson Peddie | 09/16/08

More lines? iRMX | 09/16/08

Win32 vs. .net Grayson Peddie | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? TEHD | 09/16/08

Doesn't .Net talk to Win32? davidr69 | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? tcole@... | 09/16/08

Windows? Yeah, I used to use that. schmandel@... | 09/16/08

and no doubt... LeeC | 09/16/08

Linux by amateurs? iRMX | 09/16/08

MS changes course on ISV direction! scott1329 | 09/16/08

Exactly! It's the ISV's that are going to switch. User07734 | 09/30/08

RE: Leaner Windows != .Net FL Guy | 09/16/08

What would Windows be without Win32? tymiles | 09/16/08

Techno-babble without a purpose... 3dtodd | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? johnnydoe1894 | 09/16/08

Even turkeys can fly iRMX | 09/16/08

What if all the telephone networks ran on Windows iRMX | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? tstephensoncom | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? hoppity | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? JDLjr | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? mwagner@... | 09/16/08

I'm feeling faint! happy

TtfnJohn | 09/16/08

Except for OS X . xuniL_z | 09/17/08

I think the main article meant no Win32/Win64 iRMX | 09/16/08

I am sure you are correct. My point ... mwagner@... | 09/16/08

3 GB is the limit iRMX | 09/16/08

Actually, it's only the limit on the 32 bit alaniane@... | 09/26/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? iRMX | 09/16/08

Where's the bloat goat? w_c_mead | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? buettner@... | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? chromeronin | 09/16/08

Listen Up Mary Jo! ShermB | 09/16/08

java killer strategy? MayAbandonWindows | 09/16/08

Go with interpreted code? Ouch! davetracer@... | 09/16/08

Agree, mostly w_c_mead | 09/17/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? atari8bit@... | 09/16/08

Damn, that makes sense! davetracer@... | 09/17/08

I see things differently... Information_z | 09/18/08

Can Microsoft Pulll This Off? daves1646 | 09/16/08

Blah, blah, blah... Information_z | 09/17/08

make Windows less bloated and more manageable DavidR_HHDI | 09/16/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? ceh4702 | 09/17/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? iRMX | 09/17/08

RE: What would Windows be without Win32? Don't Ask Me | 09/17/08

Only reason I would see to do that... John L. Ries | 09/17/08

Here here... Information_z | 09/17/08

MS Must remove WIN32 dswanson2609 | 09/17/08

I wonder if anyone shares your opinion... Information_z | 09/18/08

No Win32 = Vista all over again SteveMak | 09/18/08

Hey... Information_z | 09/18/08

Calling bulls ... de-void | 09/23/08

Assertions versus experiences SteveMak | 09/24/08

My assertions were born from my experiences de-void | 09/29/08

Perception... Information_z | 10/01/08

Microsoft... Information_z | 10/01/08

Whatever it is... XweAponX | 09/19/08

OT: The myth of slow managed code Developer.NET | 09/25/08

Bad designs User07734 | 09/30/08

Microsoft Development Tools jfreedle2@... | 10/03/08

I use Delphi pwoon@... | 10/05/08

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Mary-Jo Foley

September 15th, 2008

What would Windows be without Win32?

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What would Windows be without Win32?

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