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July 6th, 2007

Are Microsoft's patent lawyers really this dumb?

Posted by Mary Jo Foley @ 6:47 am

Categories: Corporate strategy, Legal, Linux, Novell

Tags: Novell Inc., Patent, Open Source, Microsoft Corp., Mary Jo Foley

In Focus » See more posts on: Microsoft Novell

Are Microsoft’s patent lawyers playing possum? Or are they really as clueless about what makes open-source software tick as they seem?

Consider the latest patent-related statement Microsoft published to its Web site on July 5 a statement claiming it is not party to the GPLv3 and is not bound by it.

“While there have been some claims that Microsoft’s distribution of certificates for Novell support services, under our interoperability collaboration with Novell, constitutes acceptance of the GPLv3 license, we do not believe that such claims have a valid legal basis under contract, intellectual property, or any other law. In fact, we do not believe that Microsoft needs a license under GPL to carry out any aspect of its collaboration with Novell, including its distribution of support certificates, even if Novell chooses to distribute GPLv3 code in the future.”

Curious (and nervous) customers — and possibly other Linux vendors with whom Microsoft is still hoping to cut patent deals — must have started asking Microsoft about what it plans to do once Novell adopts the GPLv3, as its officials have indicated it plans to do.

Microsoft’s short answer: We’re trying to back out of the distribution part of our Novell deal as fast as we can. The Novell certificates distributed by Microsoft currently cover GPLv2-protected versions of SuSE Enterprise Linux. But, given these Linux certificates reportedly have no expiration date, there seems to be a chance that customers could use them for future GPL v3-covered Novell software. That’s why Microsoft’s adopting a poison pill now:

“Microsoft has decided that the Novell support certificates that we distribute to customers will not entitle the recipient to receive from Novell, or any other party, any subscription for support and updates relating to any code licensed under GPLv3,” according to the July 5 Microsoft statement.

Open-source expert and former Microsoft employee Stephen Walli wondered about Microsoft’s real open-source intentions, based on Microsoft’s latest legal statement:

“The (July 5) Microsoft statement seems a bit premature and over reaching,” Walli said. “Stating outright that they aren’t a party to it, means they’ve cut themselves off from using it in some future circumstance where it might be genuinely business beneficial. They would need to unmake this statement. By saying they can’t envision such a situation arising shows a lack of imagination, and makes them as religious on the issue as (Free Software Foundation founder Richard) Stallman. They remain ‘committed to working with the open source community’ without actually wanting to participate in it.”

Leave aside for a moment the question about whether Microsoft is trying to coopt or cooperate with the open-source movement. From a legal standpiont, here’s what doesn’t add up, to me. Microsoft employs hundreds (if not thousands) of lawyers. How could these lawyers have:

* failed to forsee that the Free Software Foundation would find a way to put a legal monkey wrench into the GPL to thwart Microsoft’s intent to undermine Linux and the GPL?

* allowed the Novell support certificates that Microsoft has been distributing to go out without an expiration date on them?

* expected Novell not to back the GPL v3, in spite of the money it paid to Novell to cement its first patent-protection deal with a Linux distributor?

Is Microsoft legal holding a trump card that no one knows about? Or is Microsoft really as inept in fighting off open source as it currently seems?

Mary Jo FoleyMary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 20 years. Don't miss a single post. Subscribe via Email or RSS. You can also follow Mary Jo on Twitter.

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  • Most Recent of 266 Talkback(s)
RE: Are Microsoft's patent lawyers really this dumb?
It is purchased a new PC on 13 july 2009 and wanted XP but was told sexy costumes had no choice. Now Windows 7 is supposed to be better and can be purchased fro... (Read the rest)
Posted by: sexy costumes Posted on: 11/11/09 You are currently: a Guest | | Terms of Use
Can't be stopped  Tim Patterson | 07/06/07
Stopping theaft is not trying to stop open source.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Nothing needs to be stolen to interoperate between Linux and MS. All that  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
Nothing new here...  comp_indiana | 07/09/07
MSFT competes with themselves  zdnet-gregc | 07/21/09
Theft?  Tim Patterson | 07/06/07
He may have been [accidently, as usual] right!!  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Semantics correction  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
Who stole what?  Yagotta B. Kidding | 07/06/07
Tada!  zkiwi | 07/06/07
M$ legal says it's not worth their time ...  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Ok mister lawyer  I'm Ye, the MS SHILL . | 07/08/07
You, of course, mean that Microsoft has never sold  Update victim | 07/09/07
Show Us The Code No_Axe ?  Intellihence | 08/28/07
Problem  SuperSean | 07/06/07
There is no IP in what is needed for interoperation. MS is actively working  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
No IP in MS interop?  DaveHowe | 07/07/07
Wrong!  Tim Patterson | 07/06/07
More complicated.  Anton Philidor | 07/06/07
Completely wrong  chemist109 | 07/06/07
RE: Problem  super_J | 07/06/07
How is Microsoft not trying to work with open source?  Anton Philidor | 07/06/07
documentation  gtdavies33@... | 07/06/07
Such as?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
Word97linebreak  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
A ten year old app?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
Pfffft? Your tires are flat again?  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Re: How is Microsoft not trying to work with open source?  none none | 07/06/07
It's both the GPL and MS's terms  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
My Bigger Problem...  SuperSean | 07/08/07
"My Bigger Problem...Personally, I don't care"  Ole Man | 07/08/07
Re: My Bigger Problem...  none none | 07/08/07
ODF!  cheesyone | 07/09/07
Massachusetts comes to mind  Update victim | 07/09/07
Supersean,  Update victim | 07/09/07
Software sold at retail...  laplatakid | 07/10/07
losing  zzz1234567890 | 07/06/07
Predicting Court decisions...  Anton Philidor | 07/06/07
Again, there are no IP issues around interoperation. MS is actively  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
And all those Novell customers say your dead wrong.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Again, interoperability is in no way connected to IP. Yes, customers  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
Who said anything about open???  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Interoperability says open  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Interop = propriatary  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
Oooohh!! Nasty bite!!  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
I'm a Novell customer  Yagotta B. Kidding | 07/06/07
A 386 in your basement doesn't quite count.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
You not only presume to speak for Novell's customers...  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Exactly which Novell customers have you actually spoken with?  B.O.F.H. | 07/07/07
40,000 polled, 90% said they loved it  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
Still making stuff up, eh?  B.O.F.H. | 07/07/07
Link  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
No Axe, the hit-and-run MS lover  aboulley | 07/09/07
Larry The Cable Guy says...  cheesyone | 07/09/07
Your prediction is wrong  Marbux | 07/07/07
Marbux!! Good to see an informed legal opinion for a change.  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
The courts will do no such thing  Michael Kelly | 07/07/07
Not that it matters  Freebird54 | 07/09/07
Link to prior talkback  SpikeyMike | 11/08/07
whachusmokin'?  zoroaster | 07/07/07
Outrage over GPLv3 trying to tell MS what to do with it's IP is misplaced.  FlakMagnet | 07/09/07
losing and a bulletin about GPL3 and Linux  TtfnJohn | 07/09/07
Amen  super_J | 07/06/07
The GPL-3 has no control over MS  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
You are correct - there is little for Microsoft to worry about  WiredGuy | 07/06/07
That's the crux of the issue  rob@... | 07/06/07
should be interesting  zoroaster | 07/07/07
Fulfillment house as bullet-proof shield?  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Did you license your time machine to ?  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
The worst that can happen  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
It is not that simple. Once you distribute GPL3 software you can not  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
This is the real world  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
It would not exatly be retroactive. The license would apply when the  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
Quite honestly  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
Unfortunately, you will allways miss the point, or truth, as  GuidingLight | 07/08/07
One public statement is  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
And that's fine  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
Or, Novell itself  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Re: Or, Novell itself  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
Correction...  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
No, they couldn't, Axeless.  nighthawk808 | 07/09/07
Novell challenge GPLv3?? Buwhahahahaha!!  Still Lynn | 07/10/07
Re: This is the real world  none none | 07/06/07
Right on! Me too  Ole Man | 07/07/07
Obviously, MS is running scared or they would not have felt the need to  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
Nothing stupid in the statement and they look very  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
So why are you here?  GuidingLight | 07/08/07
You are right bit  Tim Patterson | 07/06/07
But, what constitutes distribution is not exactly clear, and might leave MS  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
often  zoroaster | 07/07/07
Not true.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
The GPL3 was very well written and also reviewed by lawyers outside of FSF,  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
And my lawyer can whup your lawyer.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Your lawyer would probubly tell you the same thing.  B.O.F.H. | 07/07/07
Agreed  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
I disagree...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
He wants to bring down proprietary software  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
And he wants  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Good point!  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
You are as confused as ever about the GPL  none none | 07/06/07
Sorry but you are wrong.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Re: Sorry but you are wrong.  none none | 07/06/07
I guess you have to be shown.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Re: I guess you have to be shown.  none none | 07/06/07
8 and 9  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Re: 8 and 9  none none | 07/06/07
Your cluelessness is astounding.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
Oh NOOOO!!! Watch out!!  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Re: Your cluelessness is astounding.  none none | 07/07/07
You are confused on licensing of Copywrited works.  B.O.F.H. | 07/06/07
No one is saying use GPL-3, that's nto the problem.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Always my favorite part of Eben Moglen's speeches  benanzo | 07/06/07
Still around, still in town, and still....... relevant  Ole Man | 07/07/07
GPL and MS  DaveHowe | 07/07/07
GPL and Microsoft  Ole Man | 07/08/07
No, not even close.  FlakMagnet | 07/09/07
No control...  Update victim | 07/09/07
Bzzzt yourself.  nighthawk808 | 07/09/07
Revisiting your past  SpikeyMike | 11/08/07
who needs money? when...  ruped24 | 07/06/07
Microsoft Running Scared  chessmen | 07/06/07
Hmmm, seems open source was so scared  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
So why does MS need to create bad publicity? Why say anything if they are  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
I think stating their position  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
So if there is not legal doubt about this, why is MS taking the time to  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
Informing end users is a good thing.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Then why did MS not just write letters to all customers reiterating their  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
See answer to the same post above.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
...it is the FSF claiming they have rights to MS IP...  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Microsoft wants people to buy $400 beta software  Randalllind | 07/06/07
Then don't buy it and run along...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
His comment was very appropriate. MS it trying to jump the shark with  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
Show me  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Wonderful Idea!  Ole Man | 07/07/07
I heard ...  zoroaster | 07/07/07
Propagation, not "distribution"  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Open Source cutting its own throat  GeiselS@... | 07/06/07
I agree completely, give the user what they want  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Well, with MS working feverishly behind the scenes to create baroque,  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
Seems to be working for Novell.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
You will find that it takes fewer admins for Linux servers than Windows  DonnieBoy | 07/06/07
The explain, if thats the case  John Zern | 07/08/07
Some wrong assumptions  tombalablomba | 07/06/07
My own experience  A.Sinic | 07/07/07
What experience?  zephyr2112@... | 07/07/07
The Grinch that stole the IT budget?  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Too bad you didn't read your Microsoft EULA  Ole Man | 07/07/07
Excellent link!  cheesyone | 07/09/07
There's no compulsion....  ConfusedOne | 07/15/07
The better question, Are the FSF lawyers really this dumb.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Name calling again, Rupert?  DonRupertBitByte | 07/06/07
There were no names called. Learn to read.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
I compliment your dumbness then  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
So why are you so worried  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
Yes and no  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
So don't link it  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
Re: Yes and no  none none | 07/06/07
Because that is not what they want.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
"for a fee......aren't interested in paying for it"  Ole Man | 07/08/07
Wow..  Patrick Jones | 07/06/07
I have to claim some ignorance here too  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
And if they stay under LGPL fine.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
You are mixing up 2 licences here.  B.O.F.H. | 07/06/07
No mix up at all.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
You could have said the same thing  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
Not true  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
That's wrong  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
But if your code is so much better...  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Now you're a legal expert, too  Chad_z | 07/06/07
Not a lawyer, just a smart businessman  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
s/smart/sharp/  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Why don't we clear the air?  Ole Man | 07/07/07
A copyright is not a license  code_flogger | 07/06/07
Minor correction  code_flogger | 07/06/07
OSS  interele | 07/06/07
You are right.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
The question is....  NetArch. | 07/06/07
Well, that is certainly a zealots opinion.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
How come every time....  NetArch. | 07/06/07
And why won't you face up to it?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
"isn't it a bit strange"?  Ole Man | 07/07/07
Easy to determine validity  Freebird54 | 07/09/07
Unintentional repudiation? Or legal defense strategy?  Still Lynn | 07/07/07
Incorrect  Alan(UK) | 07/07/07
Former Bush Admin Lawyers?  Swashbuckler2 | 07/06/07
No surprises here.  Anton Philidor | 07/06/07
Dumb like a fox???  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Pot = kettle  NetArch. | 07/06/07
More lies.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Sorry, but you are wrong  NetArch. | 07/06/07
And you are being deliberately obtuse.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Interoperability between Windows and Linux  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
My turn to be obtuse.  Alan(UK) | 07/07/07
Got that right!  FlakMagnet | 07/09/07
Forced to "give" it away?  cheesyone | 07/09/07
Yup, those are more lies alright.  Still Lynn | 07/10/07
lies?  Ole Man | 07/10/07
Sorry Ax - it's been entertaining...  ConfusedOne | 07/15/07
Forget Court cases.  Anton Philidor | 07/06/07
MS always had the opening  Michael Kelly | 07/06/07
GPL3 is not anti-interoperability.  FlakMagnet | 07/09/07
Re: No surprises here.  none none | 07/06/07
Recognition is not admission  Anton Philidor | 07/06/07
Re: Recognition is not admission  none none | 07/06/07
Smart moves, I'd say.  Anton Philidor | 07/06/07
Re: Smart moves, I'd say.  none none | 07/06/07
Re: Smart moves, I'd say.  none none | 07/07/07
And yet it scared FSF so much  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
Really now....  nbjayme | 07/07/07
MS lost this round  TripleII | 07/06/07
Not hardly...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/06/07
You Are Wrong  chohman | 07/07/07
He's accurate here.  Anton Philidor | 07/08/07
I doubt if ANYONE was surprised  Ole Man | 07/08/07
"facts not in evidence"?  Ole Man | 07/07/07
Easy predictions  Anton Philidor | 07/08/07
"Easy predictions"  Ole Man | 07/08/07
patent lawyers  sjaaxken | 07/06/07
MJF, they're technically correct...  olePigeon | 07/06/07
You are forgetting std MS operating procedure  dfolk | 07/06/07
Safe money is on Microsoft.  ye | 07/06/07
A proven track record?  Tony Agudo | 07/06/07
Yes, but the wrong reason  TripleII | 07/06/07
MICROSOFT IS DONE! Gate's now 2nd richest man in the world!  John Zern | 07/06/07
Ah, I read about that...  Tony Agudo | 07/06/07
So what is gonna give?  daMan25 | 07/06/07
Guess what?  nbjayme | 07/08/07
Microsoft Legal?  Yagotta B. Kidding | 07/06/07
The interesting thing is that MS felt it needed to respond...  BanjoPaterson | 07/06/07
I think you are correct  dfolk | 07/06/07
Well...  SuperSean | 07/08/07
First they ignore you ...  code_flogger | 07/06/07
Microsoft has shown in the past...  owidder | 07/06/07
MS' SCO ploy lasted 5 years; Their new ploys will last another 5; then ...  Basic Logic | 07/06/07
In 5 years  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
Only if their patent FUD campaign works, but...  Basic Logic | 07/07/07
This whole thing just makes me wonder...  zkiwi | 07/06/07
Well, I'd say, yes  Mitch 74 | 07/07/07
Handing out coupons is not distribution.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
maybe this is?  ruped24 | 07/07/07
Meaningless when it comes to open source.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
M$ Distributes GPL. AND that is a fact.  ruped24 | 07/07/07
But not GPLv3  Michael Kelly | 07/07/07
FYI:distribution  ruped24 | 07/07/07
And what has that to do with GPL-3  No_Ax_to_Grind | 07/07/07
you can lead a horse to water but ... how?  ruped24 | 07/07/07
Cooked  robjack | 07/07/07
Are Microsoft's patent lawyers really this dumb?  Ole Man | 07/07/07
Yes, when it comes to lawyers, you got it right  John Zern | 07/08/07
I'm sure you are correct  Ole Man | 07/08/07
Novell, "Business as Usual"  D-T-Schmitz | 07/08/07
I'm with PJ - lets all declare we are not bound by Microsoft's EULA!  whisperycat | 07/09/07
I'm through with this bologne  bcroner | 07/09/07
I've read a lot of very wise comments here, but...  jgisme2@... | 07/09/07
Software not patentable...  Narg | 07/09/07
All patents must die [nt]  Omch'Ar | 07/09/07
Newsflash: This can't be happening, as No_Ax said it CAN NOT!  SpikeyMike | 07/09/07
I'll give you ONE WORD that sums this up  Old Timer 8080 | 07/09/07
Lawyers & pimps don't care who pays or why  intrepi@... | 07/09/07
That is a practical view  Ole Man | 07/10/07
maby they are right  zbow1974 | 07/10/07
Are Microsoft's patent lawyers really this dumb?  LilBambi_z | 07/10/07
How will MS cooperate with communistic economy-destroying "cancer"?  Still Lynn | 07/10/07
MS Titanic  phil77@... | 07/12/07
IP vs. IP  THEE WOLF | 07/13/07
RE: Are Microsoft's patent lawyers really this dumb?  sexy costumes | 11/11/09

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